Castrol Edge Professional
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Originally Posted By: JDW
In the past I had a 02 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 . Used M1 always worked like a charm
That was back when jaguar would let you use any good synthetic. Now they put in unicorn tears and reap the profits.
In the past I had a 02 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 . Used M1 always worked like a charm
That was back when jaguar would let you use any good synthetic. Now they put in unicorn tears and reap the profits.
Yup, Ebay looks like the best. Hopefully a good vendor.
I wonder if you can actually invoke the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act on this.... the M-M act was created for scenarios such as this.
M-M, I summon you!!!!!!
BMW gets around this issue by providing maintenance during the warranty period.
It's premium coverage.
If you need a make up quart, pull in the dealer and they top it off.
After warranty, you can do whatever makes you feel comfortable.
You can use Liqui Moly or even Super Tech if you are feeling lucky.
Paying $100K+, Jaguar should step up and kick in some service.
BMW gets around this issue by providing maintenance during the warranty period.
It's premium coverage.
If you need a make up quart, pull in the dealer and they top it off.
After warranty, you can do whatever makes you feel comfortable.
You can use Liqui Moly or even Super Tech if you are feeling lucky.
Paying $100K+, Jaguar should step up and kick in some service.
Jaguar aren't saying you must use a specific supplier's oil, they are saying you must use an oil with their approval on it. At the moment there is only one such oil - more will undoubtedly come along. It is often the case with a new engine type and new spec that somebody is first and that somebody is usually the one who got to work closely with the OEM during development. It's the same with most of the OEMs. It is also one of the benefits that the suppliers get from having a close development relationship.
The further benefit is that having a specific oil developed for an engine type makes it better able to deliver on important factors such as fuel efficiency and CO2 emissions, rather than using a one-size-fits-all option that can be over-engineered with respect to one spec in order to cover several.
The further benefit is that having a specific oil developed for an engine type makes it better able to deliver on important factors such as fuel efficiency and CO2 emissions, rather than using a one-size-fits-all option that can be over-engineered with respect to one spec in order to cover several.
Originally Posted By: weasley
Jaguar aren't saying you must use a specific supplier's oil, they are saying you must use an oil with their approval on it. At the moment there is only one such oil ................................
weasley, I disagree. Especially if it turns out Jaguar is demanding payment to be the exclusive oil supplier.
You see the big danger here I hope. What if all car makers just had their own spec and had an exclusive deal with one oil maker for that spec. For example, say Honda said you can only use Honda motor oil, or your warranty is invalid, and they don't let other oils in, then they charge whatever they want to and claim "We have to because our engines are too special and need their own oil."
In reality, the specs already out there cover a lot of ground, plenty enough. Jaguar could just say to use an oil meeting ACEA A1 and SN/GF-5 and be done with it. It covers it.
Jaguar aren't saying you must use a specific supplier's oil, they are saying you must use an oil with their approval on it. At the moment there is only one such oil ................................
weasley, I disagree. Especially if it turns out Jaguar is demanding payment to be the exclusive oil supplier.
You see the big danger here I hope. What if all car makers just had their own spec and had an exclusive deal with one oil maker for that spec. For example, say Honda said you can only use Honda motor oil, or your warranty is invalid, and they don't let other oils in, then they charge whatever they want to and claim "We have to because our engines are too special and need their own oil."
In reality, the specs already out there cover a lot of ground, plenty enough. Jaguar could just say to use an oil meeting ACEA A1 and SN/GF-5 and be done with it. It covers it.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: weasley
Jaguar aren't saying you must use a specific supplier's oil, they are saying you must use an oil with their approval on it. At the moment there is only one such oil ................................
weasley, I disagree. Especially if it turns out Jaguar is demanding payment to be the exclusive oil supplier.
You see the big danger here I hope. What if all car makers just had their own spec and had an exclusive deal with one oil maker for that spec. For example, say Honda said you can only use Honda motor oil, or your warranty is invalid, and they don't let other oils in, then they charge whatever they want to and claim "We have to because our engines are too special and need their own oil."
In reality, the specs already out there cover a lot of ground, plenty enough. Jaguar could just say to use an oil meeting ACEA A1 and SN/GF-5 and be done with it. It covers it.
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
Originally Posted By: weasley
Jaguar aren't saying you must use a specific supplier's oil, they are saying you must use an oil with their approval on it. At the moment there is only one such oil ................................
weasley, I disagree. Especially if it turns out Jaguar is demanding payment to be the exclusive oil supplier.
You see the big danger here I hope. What if all car makers just had their own spec and had an exclusive deal with one oil maker for that spec. For example, say Honda said you can only use Honda motor oil, or your warranty is invalid, and they don't let other oils in, then they charge whatever they want to and claim "We have to because our engines are too special and need their own oil."
In reality, the specs already out there cover a lot of ground, plenty enough. Jaguar could just say to use an oil meeting ACEA A1 and SN/GF-5 and be done with it. It covers it.
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
What? No good reason? Says who?
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
What? No good reason? Says who?
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
You don't seem to get the bigger picture. JLR sells lots of vehicles globally. They have also introduced a new engine line and, like ALL OEMs, are focussed like a laser on CO2 emissions and fuel economy. SN/GF-5/ACEA etc are good enough, as far as they go, but they do not offer the bespoke performance that is now needed to get every last drop of performance and efficiency. The oil is a part of the engine, like a piston, bearing or valve - they are entitled to insist that any replacement parts meet their specification requirements to maintain the warranty. If you don't want the warranty, or it has expired, you are free to do what you want, but it is at your risk (and possibly reward).
There is no racket or conspiracy here, just the world moving forwards at an increasing pace. As BMWTurboDzl points out, once launched, the specs are not kept secret and anyone who can pass the tests can shoot for an approval. So far one company has achieved that.
BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche, Ford, GM, PSA, Renault, Volvo, Fiat etc all have their own specs, some of which are also only supplied by one oil company and others, which have been out for years, have numerous options (eg BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502 00/505 00). JLR historically relied on Ford specs (WSS-M2Cxxxx) but now they are out of Ford they have their own engines and own specs. And why would they use dexos, which is a competitor's spec built around their engines?!
You might not like it, or agree with it, but it is the way the world is going and the price we pay for the efficiency and performance that we expect.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
You don't seem to get the bigger picture. JLR sells lots of vehicles globally. They have also introduced a new engine line and, like ALL OEMs, are focussed like a laser on CO2 emissions and fuel economy. SN/GF-5/ACEA etc are good enough, as far as they go, but they do not offer the bespoke performance that is now needed to get every last drop of performance and efficiency. The oil is a part of the engine, like a piston, bearing or valve - they are entitled to insist that any replacement parts meet their specification requirements to maintain the warranty. If you don't want the warranty, or it has expired, you are free to do what you want, but it is at your risk (and possibly reward).
There is no racket or conspiracy here, just the world moving forwards at an increasing pace. As BMWTurboDzl points out, once launched, the specs are not kept secret and anyone who can pass the tests can shoot for an approval. So far one company has achieved that.
BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche, Ford, GM, PSA, Renault, Volvo, Fiat etc all have their own specs, some of which are also only supplied by one oil company and others, which have been out for years, have numerous options (eg BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502 00/505 00). JLR historically relied on Ford specs (WSS-M2Cxxxx) but now they are out of Ford they have their own engines and own specs. And why would they use dexos, which is a competitor's spec built around their engines?!
You might not like it, or agree with it, but it is the way the world is going and the price we pay for the efficiency and performance that we expect.
^^^weasley, as usual your posts are way off base. "World moving at an increasing pace", as you put it, is not relevant on this subject.
This is how it should be done, how Toyota is doing it, on behalf of their customers (from a recent FAQ from Toyota):
"Q: Can I use any brand of 0W-20 synthetic oil?
A: Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 utilizes a Toyota-specific additive package that will provide the best results for oil performance and fuel economy - it's what the engine was designed to use. However, other 0W-20 synthetic oils can be used, even though they aren't optimized for Toyota engines."
All Jag would have to do is specify SN-GF5-ACEA specs relevant, and thats an extensive battery of testing, job done, customer free to choose between a dozen oil sources. GM, with dexos, did run a well-known racket, demanding royalty payments from every bottle sold, and just borrowing many of the ACEA tests ! If this is a trend, its gotta stop. Insanity.
This is how it should be done, how Toyota is doing it, on behalf of their customers (from a recent FAQ from Toyota):
"Q: Can I use any brand of 0W-20 synthetic oil?
A: Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 utilizes a Toyota-specific additive package that will provide the best results for oil performance and fuel economy - it's what the engine was designed to use. However, other 0W-20 synthetic oils can be used, even though they aren't optimized for Toyota engines."
All Jag would have to do is specify SN-GF5-ACEA specs relevant, and thats an extensive battery of testing, job done, customer free to choose between a dozen oil sources. GM, with dexos, did run a well-known racket, demanding royalty payments from every bottle sold, and just borrowing many of the ACEA tests ! If this is a trend, its gotta stop. Insanity.
I don't see the big deal over a JLR spec, manufacturers specs are nothing new after all. Should Porsche, MB, BMW, VW just to name a few from one country be forced to use global specs also? These manufacturer specs push oil development further than any global spec.
Unlike 30 and 40 grades there are far less global specs for 20 grades to choose from. I can understand that manufacturers want more precise formulations as viscosity gets lower and lower. With SAE 8, 12 and 16 around the corner I suspect this is going to get "worse" not better.
Unlike 30 and 40 grades there are far less global specs for 20 grades to choose from. I can understand that manufacturers want more precise formulations as viscosity gets lower and lower. With SAE 8, 12 and 16 around the corner I suspect this is going to get "worse" not better.
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Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
They have a great reason: enrich their dealers!
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
As of right now the specs are not proprietary information. MM prevents that. It's up to the formulators to determine whether they can make $$ blending to the OEM spec.
So Jaguar, who sells very few cars in the U.S., comes up with their own specs instead of using the already excellent and popular SN GF-5 ACEA A1, WSS-, even dexos, others maybe.
I can see how the racket works. The fact is Jag had no GOOD reason to come up with their own spec.
They have a great reason: enrich their dealers!
Originally Posted By: supercity
I don't see the big deal over a JLR spec, manufacturers specs are nothing new after all. Should Porsche, MB, BMW, VW just to name a few from one country be forced to use global specs also? These manufacturer specs push oil development further than any global spec.
Unlike 30 and 40 grades there are far less global specs for 20 grades to choose from. I can understand that manufacturers want more precise formulations as viscosity gets lower and lower. With SAE 8, 12 and 16 around the corner I suspect this is going to get "worse" not better.
While manufacturer specs are nothing new, those German car maker approvals you mentioned mean you can choose from at least 3 or more easy-to-find COMPETITIVE sources in the FREE market. For JLR to threaten their customers with warranty denial when only 1 source is available is abusive to their customers. You can't tell me there is something so magically unique about those Jag engines that they need their own ONE oil. JLR could have their own spec, but could also allow the use of very-high-quality synthetic oils too for the person who doesn't want to donate $180 to the dealership for an oil change.
I don't see the big deal over a JLR spec, manufacturers specs are nothing new after all. Should Porsche, MB, BMW, VW just to name a few from one country be forced to use global specs also? These manufacturer specs push oil development further than any global spec.
Unlike 30 and 40 grades there are far less global specs for 20 grades to choose from. I can understand that manufacturers want more precise formulations as viscosity gets lower and lower. With SAE 8, 12 and 16 around the corner I suspect this is going to get "worse" not better.
While manufacturer specs are nothing new, those German car maker approvals you mentioned mean you can choose from at least 3 or more easy-to-find COMPETITIVE sources in the FREE market. For JLR to threaten their customers with warranty denial when only 1 source is available is abusive to their customers. You can't tell me there is something so magically unique about those Jag engines that they need their own ONE oil. JLR could have their own spec, but could also allow the use of very-high-quality synthetic oils too for the person who doesn't want to donate $180 to the dealership for an oil change.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
^^^weasley, as usual your posts are way off base. "World moving at an increasing pace", as you put it, is not relevant on this subject.
This is how it should be done, how Toyota is doing it, on behalf of their customers (from a recent FAQ from Toyota):
"Q: Can I use any brand of 0W-20 synthetic oil?
A: Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 utilizes a Toyota-specific additive package that will provide the best results for oil performance and fuel economy - it's what the engine was designed to use. However, other 0W-20 synthetic oils can be used, even though they aren't optimized for Toyota engines."
All Jag would have to do is specify SN-GF5-ACEA specs relevant, and thats an extensive battery of testing, job done, customer free to choose between a dozen oil sources. GM, with dexos, did run a well-known racket, demanding royalty payments from every bottle sold, and just borrowing many of the ACEA tests ! If this is a trend, its gotta stop. Insanity.
100k Jaguar is not a Toyota hatch. Can't see how this is a new thing, there are other manufacturers that are doing the same. For example a Ferrari. Only Shell Ultra / Pennzoil 5w40 have approval. Same goes for Alfa Romeo /FIAT. Only Selenia caries approvals. BMW did the same with M series specific Edge 10w60 before they switched to LL 01. Only different is that is possible to buy this oils from different vendors, and Jag oil is a dealer only thing for now. That will change with time.
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^^^weasley, as usual your posts are way off base. "World moving at an increasing pace", as you put it, is not relevant on this subject.
This is how it should be done, how Toyota is doing it, on behalf of their customers (from a recent FAQ from Toyota):
"Q: Can I use any brand of 0W-20 synthetic oil?
A: Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 utilizes a Toyota-specific additive package that will provide the best results for oil performance and fuel economy - it's what the engine was designed to use. However, other 0W-20 synthetic oils can be used, even though they aren't optimized for Toyota engines."
All Jag would have to do is specify SN-GF5-ACEA specs relevant, and thats an extensive battery of testing, job done, customer free to choose between a dozen oil sources. GM, with dexos, did run a well-known racket, demanding royalty payments from every bottle sold, and just borrowing many of the ACEA tests ! If this is a trend, its gotta stop. Insanity.
100k Jaguar is not a Toyota hatch. Can't see how this is a new thing, there are other manufacturers that are doing the same. For example a Ferrari. Only Shell Ultra / Pennzoil 5w40 have approval. Same goes for Alfa Romeo /FIAT. Only Selenia caries approvals. BMW did the same with M series specific Edge 10w60 before they switched to LL 01. Only different is that is possible to buy this oils from different vendors, and Jag oil is a dealer only thing for now. That will change with time.
/
EDGE professional OE is a 5W-20 and for older engines
EDGE professional E is a 0W-20 developed with the AJ133 and giving significant Fuel economy benefits
EDGE professional E is a 0W-20 developed with the AJ133 and giving significant Fuel economy benefits
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
EDGE professional OE is a 5W-20 and for older engines
EDGE professional E is a 0W-20 developed with the AJ133 and giving significant Fuel economy benefits
There is such a thing as Castrol Edge Profess OE 0w-20
http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-Professional-0W-20-Synthetic-Motor/dp/B00SP9M1D2
And, bobbydavro, I'm wondering how significant is the friction-modifier reduction in the "E" Castrol version? To anyone reading this, note that many times friction reduction does not translate to wear reduction. Most total friction comes from the viscosity drag itself, with secondary effects from added friction modifiers.
EDGE professional OE is a 5W-20 and for older engines
EDGE professional E is a 0W-20 developed with the AJ133 and giving significant Fuel economy benefits
There is such a thing as Castrol Edge Profess OE 0w-20
http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-Professional-0W-20-Synthetic-Motor/dp/B00SP9M1D2
And, bobbydavro, I'm wondering how significant is the friction-modifier reduction in the "E" Castrol version? To anyone reading this, note that many times friction reduction does not translate to wear reduction. Most total friction comes from the viscosity drag itself, with secondary effects from added friction modifiers.
Ha you're right. I should know that too!
For 0W-20E The JLR specification has some extra cold flow parameters over sae j300. It's also a 'European' formulation with A5/B5 so higher levels of cleanliness
The 0W-20 OE targets dexos1 GF5 and A1/B1. So a slightly different direction specification wise in terms of chemistry.
For 0W-20E The JLR specification has some extra cold flow parameters over sae j300. It's also a 'European' formulation with A5/B5 so higher levels of cleanliness
The 0W-20 OE targets dexos1 GF5 and A1/B1. So a slightly different direction specification wise in terms of chemistry.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Ha you're right. I should know that too!
For 0W-20E The JLR specification has some extra cold flow parameters over sae j300. It's also a 'European' formulation with A5/B5 so higher levels of cleanliness
The 0W-20 OE targets dexos1 GF5 and A1/B1. So a slightly different direction specification wise in terms of chemistry.
A 0w-20 cannot be A5/B5, only an xW-30 does that. I follow you though, in that the Castrol E oil may be using the long-drain cleanliness standards in A5/B5.
I don't see much, if any, difference between an oil meeting dexos1-A1/B1 vs. dexos1-A5/B5 according to using the Lubrizol tool: https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html
That said, I still think any dexos1 A1/B1 oil already out there would cover this Jaguar spec, since dexos has a new low-temp pumpability test added to match up to the Jaguar requirement, and the combined dexos1 and ACEA A1/B1 cleanliness tests are extensive enough.
Ha you're right. I should know that too!
For 0W-20E The JLR specification has some extra cold flow parameters over sae j300. It's also a 'European' formulation with A5/B5 so higher levels of cleanliness
The 0W-20 OE targets dexos1 GF5 and A1/B1. So a slightly different direction specification wise in terms of chemistry.
A 0w-20 cannot be A5/B5, only an xW-30 does that. I follow you though, in that the Castrol E oil may be using the long-drain cleanliness standards in A5/B5.
I don't see much, if any, difference between an oil meeting dexos1-A1/B1 vs. dexos1-A5/B5 according to using the Lubrizol tool: https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html
That said, I still think any dexos1 A1/B1 oil already out there would cover this Jaguar spec, since dexos has a new low-temp pumpability test added to match up to the Jaguar requirement, and the combined dexos1 and ACEA A1/B1 cleanliness tests are extensive enough.
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