Castrol Edge 0W-40 lost LL-01?

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by gatorfast
Weird I have been using Castrol 0w40 in my M3 and all of the bottles I used have the LL-01 approval on them. Guess Ill have to keep an eye on that.

On another note, BMW has really made their oil recommendations confusing in recent years. Outside of LL-01, there doesnt seem to be any "off the shelf" oils available meeting LL-01fe or some of the newer specs.


LL01FE is an obsolete spec that's really only used in the US. In any case the link below will give you some LL01 options. The S55 can use LL01, LL01FE, LL04 and LL12FE.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f32-435i-cou/repair-manuals/11-engine/1PSryV8


That bolsters my point of how convoluted and inconvenient the BMW approvals have gotten. LL-01FE, a fairly recent spec is already obsolete you say. When LL-01 was king, you could walk into virtually any auto parts store and find an LL-01 approved oil on the shelf from an array of manufacturers. Once they moved to LL-01FE and newer specs the dealership became the only place to find approved oil.

 

[ad_infinitum]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ad_infinitum
I suspect they may have failed the same turbocharger test that Mobil 1 did. The date on the product data sheet posted herein is July 20, 2018.



What?

Where in the heck did that come from?

From the EXTENSIVE discussion we had on here, there was absolutely no reason ever uncovered as to why Mobil dropped the LL-01 approval with the FS reformulation. There was a lot of SPECULATION, but beyond that, nothing.

This will be the THIRD 0w-40 to be lacking LL-01 on its approval list, whilst retaining the other current relevant manufacturer approvals:
1. M1 FS 0w-40
2. Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0w-40
3. Castrol Edge 0w-40 (new)

So either the oils are all becoming junk, yet managing to retain A40, 229.5, 502.00...etc, or, what is more likely, is that these flagship products are simply not being re-certified for LL-01 when reformulated/formulated because it's no longer a current spec.



I mentioned the turbocharger test because I saw it posted on the forum here before (link below), and wanted to see if that was true. I was interested in the technical reason for why LL-01 was dropped or lost. Which I understand now is because it is obsolete. I was under the impression that certain oils could not meet LL-01 because they lacked performance characteristics. That is why I phrased the statement you quoted with uncertainty. I wanted to evoke responses from persons more knowledgeable on the matter.

Linkhttps://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4069443/Re:_Favorite_BMW_LL-01_oil

 

[ad_infinitum]

Originally Posted by gatorfast
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by gatorfast
Weird I have been using Castrol 0w40 in my M3 and all of the bottles I used have the LL-01 approval on them. Guess Ill have to keep an eye on that.

On another note, BMW has really made their oil recommendations confusing in recent years. Outside of LL-01, there doesnt seem to be any "off the shelf" oils available meeting LL-01fe or some of the newer specs.


LL01FE is an obsolete spec that's really only used in the US. In any case the link below will give you some LL01 options. The S55 can use LL01, LL01FE, LL04 and LL12FE.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f32-435i-cou/repair-manuals/11-engine/1PSryV8


That bolsters my point of how convoluted and inconvenient the BMW approvals have gotten. LL-01FE, a fairly recent spec is already obsolete you say. When LL-01 was king, you could walk into virtually any auto parts store and find an LL-01 approved oil on the shelf from an array of manufacturers. Once they moved to LL-01FE and newer specs the dealership became the only place to find approved oil.


In addition to your point about BMW oil, other manufacturers are moving to harder to find specifications. Such as Volkswagen/Audi with 508/509 specification.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ad_infinitum
I mentioned the turbocharger test because I saw it posted on the forum here before (link below), and wanted to see if that was true. I was interested in the technical reason for why LL-01 was dropped or lost. Which I understand now is because it is obsolete. I was under the impression that certain oils could not meet LL-01 because they lacked performance characteristics. That is why I phrased the statement you quoted with uncertainty. I wanted to evoke responses from persons more knowledgeable on the matter.

Linkhttps://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4069443/Re:_Favorite_BMW_LL-01_oil


Yes, three years ago there was some correspondence between what I assume was the Mobil help desk (since they didn't know what the FS stood for) and one of the BMW boards that indicated that during the reformulation of M1 0w-40 BMW also changed the parameters for the LL-01 test and that Mobil hadn't gone ahead and pursued the updated approval yet. The product still met the performance standards for the previous version of the test. I think we can safely assume that since it has been three years and others are now dropping that approval that Mobil simply didn't bother to pursue it beyond that point and Shell has done the same with their 0w-40 and Castrol now the same for theirs. I don't believe there was ever anything that indicated that the product failed, it simply wasn't approved to that latest standard because it didn't exist at the time the product was formulated and its approvals pursued. Mobil didn't appear to see the value in submitting for the updated spec once it was out and others appear to be following that lead. Spending money on an obsolete spec when you've done a reformulation doesn't make sense and this trend evidences that. I'm guessing Castrol has now updated their 0w-40 enough that it needed to be re-approved and they've gone the same route as XOM.

 

[Quattro Pete]

This is the response I got from Castrol North America:
Quote
OEM approvals are normally covered for a period of time and then they expire requiring renewal. It was a business decision to not continue the BMW LongLife LL-01 approval in the 0W-40 grade. BMW LL-01 approval is available in the Castrol EDGE 5W-40 grade .

So yeah, they chose not to renew, but we still don't know why. Was it because they thought this spec is no longer relevant, or was it because something has diametrically changed in the LL-01 spec, making the approval more difficult to obtain?

 

[1JZ_E46]

Interesting, considering Castrol 5W-40 doesn't meet 229.5 (I'm assuming based on this logic: since the oil was submitted for MB-approval, it's hard to make the case that 229.5 isn't listed because approval was not sought, if that makes sense.)

I'm betting when LL-01 approval expires for 5W-40 they won't seek renewal.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
This is the response I got from Castrol North America:
Quote
OEM approvals are normally covered for a period of time and then they expire requiring renewal. It was a business decision to not continue the BMW LongLife LL-01 approval in the 0W-40 grade. BMW LL-01 approval is available in the Castrol EDGE 5W-40 grade .

So yeah, they chose not to renew, but we still don't know why. Was it because they thought this spec is no longer relevant, or was it because something has diametrically changed in the LL-01 spec, making the approval more difficult to obtain?


I have a hard time picturing LL-01 being more demanding than A40 or the MB specs

Also, if it had changed that dramatically, implying there was a reason for that change, you would expect they wouldn't allow legacy use of the previous version. It's not like Edge 5w-40 is an earth-shatteringly good lube, it's actually quite mediocre, blended with cheaper bases and having fewer approvals, so if it's carrying the older version of the spec, that's one thing, but if it is the current version, then I think that speaks to the demands the spec imposes.

Fuchs still has an approved LL-01 0w-40 for the moment, as do Ravenol and Valvoline. So it will be interesting if they go the same way with it. Valvoline's has a VI of 180 and a pour point of -42C, which speaks to Group III and a fair shot of VII, definitely a "lesser" based blend than Edge 0w-40 if the PAO content remains the same in it

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by gatorfast
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by gatorfast
Weird I have been using Castrol 0w40 in my M3 and all of the bottles I used have the LL-01 approval on them. Guess Ill have to keep an eye on that.

On another note, BMW has really made their oil recommendations confusing in recent years. Outside of LL-01, there doesnt seem to be any "off the shelf" oils available meeting LL-01fe or some of the newer specs.


LL01FE is an obsolete spec that's really only used in the US. In any case the link below will give you some LL01 options. The S55 can use LL01, LL01FE, LL04 and LL12FE.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f32-435i-cou/repair-manuals/11-engine/1PSryV8


That bolsters my point of how convoluted and inconvenient the BMW approvals have gotten. LL-01FE, a fairly recent spec is already obsolete you say. When LL-01 was king, you could walk into virtually any auto parts store and find an LL-01 approved oil on the shelf from an array of manufacturers. Once they moved to LL-01FE and newer specs the dealership became the only place to find approved oil.


Actually LL01FE(A5/B5) was started around 2001 or so, but was replaced in Europe about 10 yrs later (LL12FE). I'd imagine 01FE is only used in the US.

 

[Bjornviken]

Motul 0w-40 and Ravenol 0w-40 still have the bmw LL01 approval

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Motul 0w-40 and Ravenol 0w-40 still have the bmw LL01 approval


Yes, as does Fuchs and Valvoline as I noted above.

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Motul 0w-40 and Ravenol 0w-40 still have the bmw LL01 approval


Yes, as does Fuchs and Valvoline as I noted above.



yesðŸ‘

 

[dbias]

I'm wondering why anyone who cannot locate LL01 wouldn't simply use WV504 which out performs LL01 in every way, even beating A40?

 

[1JZ_E46]

The Lubrizol comparison tool is not an apples to apples comparison. It even disclaims that fact and says it's meant to compare specs within a single manufacturer or organization (api, ACEA)

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by dbias
I'm wondering why anyone who cannot locate LL01 wouldn't simply use WV504 which out performs LL01 in every way, even beating A40?

Most (if not all) 504.00/507.00 oils are low SAPS oils - not the best option if you want to run longer OCIs and you dont have ULS gasoline. US is supposedly heading toward ULS gasoline, but I am not sure if we are 100% there yet, aside from CA maybe.

 

[dbias]

Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
The Lubrizol comparison tool is not an apples to apples comparison. It even disclaims that fact and says it's meant to compare specs within a single manufacturer or organization (api, ACEA)


So VW 504 could be 100 times worse for wear protection compared to LL01?
I can see trying to say LL01 sucks for after treatment is not right as the LL01 spec is not designed for dpf.
I ran VW 504 for 10k and 12k oci intervals in my 2015 Passat TDI and it returned excellent UOA. I know the TDI and a gas BMW is truly comparing apples to oranges but 504/507 still shows great wear capabilities.

 

[1JZ_E46]

I think you missed my point.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
So yeah, they chose not to renew, but we still don't know why. Was it because they thought this spec is no longer relevant, or was it because something has diametrically changed in the LL-01 spec, making the approval more difficult to obtain?

I'm gathering relevance. Last time I checked, Mobil Super 3000 5w-40, a bulk product, still had LL-01. So, either its sheet is out of date and incorrect or it is not; this means that the approval isn't all that demanding or some just aren't bothering. If neither Mobil's nor Castrol's flagships products are going to carry the specification but their "lesser" products will, it tells me they're not that interested.

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted by dbias
I'm wondering why anyone who cannot locate LL01 wouldn't simply use WV504 which out performs LL01 in every way, even beating A40?



Engines are not the same so you really cant compere the approvals.

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
So yeah, they chose not to renew, but we still don't know why. Was it because they thought this spec is no longer relevant, or was it because something has diametrically changed in the LL-01 spec, making the approval more difficult to obtain?

I'm gathering relevance. Last time I checked, Mobil Super 3000 5w-40, a bulk product, still had LL-01. So, either its sheet is out of date and incorrect or it is not; this means that the approval isn't all that demanding or some just aren't bothering. If neither Mobil's nor Castrol's flagships products are going to carry the specification but their "lesser" products will, it tells me they're not that interested.



Yes, it still have the approval. Can be that BMW is moving to mid saps oils in their cars and so are maybe others EU car makers thanks to the WLTP.


https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/europes-car-makers-face-widespread-wltp-disruption

 

[Garak]

It wouldn't be a surprise. How many vehicles is BMW selling now (or that are still under warranty) that expressly call for LL-01 only? I can't see the current M1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-30 A3/B4, or Castro 0w-40 A3/B4 somehow being unsuitable all of sudden for a 10 year old BMW.