Looks good. Thanx for the C&P.
CARQUEST RED 85334, 3,000 miles TORN!!
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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
... Another odd feature on some purolators like this one is the much larger than needed media end caps.
To help align the parts in the can, perhaps?
Speaking of end caps, have you seen such media tears in no-end-cap designs, or with "cardboard" end caps?
... Another odd feature on some purolators like this one is the much larger than needed media end caps.
To help align the parts in the can, perhaps?
Speaking of end caps, have you seen such media tears in no-end-cap designs, or with "cardboard" end caps?
dnewton3
Staff member
I quit using Tearlators a long while back, for this very reason. While it seemed anecdotal at first, it's become a pattern. And these are just the ones we see; what of the tens of thousands that are used and changed out and never cut open by John Q Public? Well never know the true exposure, but what I see from long term Cut-n-posts here is NOT good.
I do, however, have some questions/comments ...
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCI shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
That in mind from above, how much "flow" is seen going through the tear point? That is VERY hard to estimate, and would only be revealed in some very elaborate testing in a lab. It's an answer we'll likely never get.
But ... and this is what I've been asking about for years ... how much does this matter?
I'm not in any way happy about a media tear, but the engineer in me wants to know the true effect in a measurable sense. It would be great if we could get some UOAs to go along with these "tears", to see if we can find any correlation of wear increase in a substantial manner. Undoubtedly no person will advocate that a tear is a good thing. But how much of a bad-thing is this really? Conceptually we all cringe at this. But what is the real world willing to reveal to us?
Is a tear good? No way.
Is a tear bad? Probably, but by how much?
Really bad? Mostly bad? Somewhat bad? Barely bad? Hardly discernibly bad?
PLEASE - the next time someone posts a "torn media" filter thread, can we get some UOA data that coincides with the OFCI, and we can start to build a knowledge base around this topic?
I do, however, have some questions/comments ...
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCI shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
That in mind from above, how much "flow" is seen going through the tear point? That is VERY hard to estimate, and would only be revealed in some very elaborate testing in a lab. It's an answer we'll likely never get.
But ... and this is what I've been asking about for years ... how much does this matter?
I'm not in any way happy about a media tear, but the engineer in me wants to know the true effect in a measurable sense. It would be great if we could get some UOAs to go along with these "tears", to see if we can find any correlation of wear increase in a substantial manner. Undoubtedly no person will advocate that a tear is a good thing. But how much of a bad-thing is this really? Conceptually we all cringe at this. But what is the real world willing to reveal to us?
Is a tear good? No way.
Is a tear bad? Probably, but by how much?
Really bad? Mostly bad? Somewhat bad? Barely bad? Hardly discernibly bad?
PLEASE - the next time someone posts a "torn media" filter thread, can we get some UOA data that coincides with the OFCI, and we can start to build a knowledge base around this topic?
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Originally Posted By: jongies3
I still don't get why this comes to a shock to most people. Purolators have been tearing for a long time now.
Well actually there are only a few people on this site who act like the tearing media problem is not a problem. It's just a small minority of people who view it as not being a problem. When I see another torn filter, it doesn't surprise me. I was hoping though that maybe they (Puro) were back on track with their filters. It's not wrong to hope, and I do believe in second and third (and so on) chances, but evidently the problem hasn't been ironed out yet.
I still don't get why this comes to a shock to most people. Purolators have been tearing for a long time now.
Well actually there are only a few people on this site who act like the tearing media problem is not a problem. It's just a small minority of people who view it as not being a problem. When I see another torn filter, it doesn't surprise me. I was hoping though that maybe they (Puro) were back on track with their filters. It's not wrong to hope, and I do believe in second and third (and so on) chances, but evidently the problem hasn't been ironed out yet.
I was thinking along the same lines of Dnewton.... IF we assume that this Purolator problem is as widespread as some folks believe (right or wrong), and IF we assume that a tear is the "horrible, OMG how could you???" level.... where are the engine failures caused these damaged filters?
I am not at all saying tears are good or acceptable. I'm asking scientifically... we can claim anything is "bad" like we do with things like cardboard Frams, warning oils on PQIA, etc... and there is obviously a lot of noise with the millions of samples, but overall the data seems to show that a tear generally isn't the end of the world. I think 99% of even BITOGers will agree that, barring running the engine with no oil or coolant (and changing fluids and filters at ANY kind of reasonable timeframe), the vast majority of today's engines will greatly outlast the original owner, and probably somewhere into the 250-300k range if the rest of the car remains viable.
So yes, the tearing is an issue, and needs to be resolved. Do you need to have a stroke and sell your vehicle if you cut open a filter and find a torn one? Hardly.
Maintenance has always been a pay-as-you-go service: you either pay up front for quality parts and fluids, or you pay later with increased repair costs or the purchase of a new vehicle.
I am not at all saying tears are good or acceptable. I'm asking scientifically... we can claim anything is "bad" like we do with things like cardboard Frams, warning oils on PQIA, etc... and there is obviously a lot of noise with the millions of samples, but overall the data seems to show that a tear generally isn't the end of the world. I think 99% of even BITOGers will agree that, barring running the engine with no oil or coolant (and changing fluids and filters at ANY kind of reasonable timeframe), the vast majority of today's engines will greatly outlast the original owner, and probably somewhere into the 250-300k range if the rest of the car remains viable.
So yes, the tearing is an issue, and needs to be resolved. Do you need to have a stroke and sell your vehicle if you cut open a filter and find a torn one? Hardly.
Maintenance has always been a pay-as-you-go service: you either pay up front for quality parts and fluids, or you pay later with increased repair costs or the purchase of a new vehicle.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Surprisingly, Purolator has not acknowledged there is a problem nor have they fixed the problem.
Our Walmarts brought them in a few years back to replace Frams, then gave Purolator the boot in favour of Fram again. Now, that's a different issue (unfamiliarity in the Canadian market or something, or a supply issue), but if losing a significant market opportunity doesn't phase them, what will?
dnewton3: As I've said in many threads, I doubt that tear creates a bunch of harm. That doesn't mean it's acceptable, and I expect better from a product. Note that I don't use Fram orange cans for a similar reason. They're expensive up here, and I expect better build quality for $8 per filter for my F-150 versus the $4.99 Wix.
Surprisingly, Purolator has not acknowledged there is a problem nor have they fixed the problem.
Our Walmarts brought them in a few years back to replace Frams, then gave Purolator the boot in favour of Fram again. Now, that's a different issue (unfamiliarity in the Canadian market or something, or a supply issue), but if losing a significant market opportunity doesn't phase them, what will?
dnewton3: As I've said in many threads, I doubt that tear creates a bunch of harm. That doesn't mean it's acceptable, and I expect better from a product. Note that I don't use Fram orange cans for a similar reason. They're expensive up here, and I expect better build quality for $8 per filter for my F-150 versus the $4.99 Wix.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCI shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
Let's assume what you say is true, perhaps the best way to ensure the media doesn't tear is to prefill it and let it soak for several minutes before starting the engine? Still no guarantees it won't tear, but your theory is a logical one.
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCI shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
Let's assume what you say is true, perhaps the best way to ensure the media doesn't tear is to prefill it and let it soak for several minutes before starting the engine? Still no guarantees it won't tear, but your theory is a logical one.
Originally Posted By: sir1900
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCIu shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
Let's assume what you say is true, perhaps the best way to ensure the media doesn't tear is to prefill it and let it soak for several minutes before starting the engine? Still no guarantees it won't tear, but your theory is a logical one.
Delta-p across the media is a function of the flow volume through it. I don't think it matters on a dry start if there's no oil in the filter. The oil volume hits the media and causes delta-p as it passes through, regardless of up stream or down stream pressures. Only wrinkle might be that there's an initial high impact force on the media from the wall of oil hitting the media if the filter is dry upon start-up.
But keep in mind that at start-up and engine idle RPM the oil pump isn't putting out very much volume. I'd think there's higher delta-p across the media with cold oil combined with high engine RPM. And if the bypass vavle is working correctly, the delta-p across the media shoild never get above the bypass valve setting and protect the media from damage.
Many different brand of oil filters experience the same kind of dry start-ups, yet Purolators are the ones showing torn media. Other filters survive their use environment.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCIu shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
Let's assume what you say is true, perhaps the best way to ensure the media doesn't tear is to prefill it and let it soak for several minutes before starting the engine? Still no guarantees it won't tear, but your theory is a logical one.
Delta-p across the media is a function of the flow volume through it. I don't think it matters on a dry start if there's no oil in the filter. The oil volume hits the media and causes delta-p as it passes through, regardless of up stream or down stream pressures. Only wrinkle might be that there's an initial high impact force on the media from the wall of oil hitting the media if the filter is dry upon start-up.
But keep in mind that at start-up and engine idle RPM the oil pump isn't putting out very much volume. I'd think there's higher delta-p across the media with cold oil combined with high engine RPM. And if the bypass vavle is working correctly, the delta-p across the media shoild never get above the bypass valve setting and protect the media from damage.
Many different brand of oil filters experience the same kind of dry start-ups, yet Purolators are the ones showing torn media. Other filters survive their use environment.
dnewton3
Staff member
I don't agree that filling the filter will really assuage this issue of the dP across dry media. Mostly because when you fill the filter, it still has the entire circuit above it as a void as well, so the "shock" will still be on the side of the upstream media.
But, Zee makes a valid counter-point. I'm not convinced either he or I am correct here. He's right that a "normal" cold start really pumps a fairly small volume of oil. I already admit that I cannot prove my theory; it was just a stab at an explanation.
However - what we should be seeking is the EFFECT of the tears, not the existence of the tears. We know they happen, but what do they cause??????
I would ask anyone who does both UOAs and filter disections to please keep the data flowing, and let's see if we can find any correlation in wear rate shifts to media tears.
Honestly, I doubt there is any shift significant, enough to make a difference, but I'm more than willing to crunch the data for those that can provide it.
But, Zee makes a valid counter-point. I'm not convinced either he or I am correct here. He's right that a "normal" cold start really pumps a fairly small volume of oil. I already admit that I cannot prove my theory; it was just a stab at an explanation.
However - what we should be seeking is the EFFECT of the tears, not the existence of the tears. We know they happen, but what do they cause??????
I would ask anyone who does both UOAs and filter disections to please keep the data flowing, and let's see if we can find any correlation in wear rate shifts to media tears.
Honestly, I doubt there is any shift significant, enough to make a difference, but I'm more than willing to crunch the data for those that can provide it.
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I believe the pressure drop happens within the media itself, from the outside to inside. let's say an engine has worn out bearings and low oil pressure, almost like an open hole. Does that mean the filter is experiencing more pressure drop? If so maybe that's why Purolator's cheap line may tear, they have been unlucky on what engine they get put on. Just unlucky filters.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I believe the pressure drop happens within the media itself, from the outside to inside. let's say an engine has worn out bearings and low oil pressure, almost like an open hole. Does that mean the filter is experiencing more pressure drop?
I would expect the oil pump would have some wear on it also. Therefore, pumping less oil. I would say no. If your statement were true, then old worn out engines would have issues with other oil filters than just Purolator.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
If so maybe that's why Purolator's cheap line may tear, they have been unlucky on what engine they get put on. Just unlucky filters.
Once in a while, we see a filter that is filled to capacity. This is not one of those cases. This is the case of a poorly engineered and manufactured filter. The media is weak, brittle, unsupported and Purolator does not put enough media in the filter to minimize the DP across the element under normal circumstances.
I believe the pressure drop happens within the media itself, from the outside to inside. let's say an engine has worn out bearings and low oil pressure, almost like an open hole. Does that mean the filter is experiencing more pressure drop?
I would expect the oil pump would have some wear on it also. Therefore, pumping less oil. I would say no. If your statement were true, then old worn out engines would have issues with other oil filters than just Purolator.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
If so maybe that's why Purolator's cheap line may tear, they have been unlucky on what engine they get put on. Just unlucky filters.
Once in a while, we see a filter that is filled to capacity. This is not one of those cases. This is the case of a poorly engineered and manufactured filter. The media is weak, brittle, unsupported and Purolator does not put enough media in the filter to minimize the DP across the element under normal circumstances.
I generally agree with Dnewton's and SubieRuby's posts above. As to the "how bad is it" question, obviously it varies. When the media tears, a full-flow filter becomes a partial-flow one. The percentage of flow bypassing through the rip could be under 20% for small tears, or over 90% for bad ones. (It can't be 100%, as some have claimed in other threads.) Luckily, otherwise healthy engines with good air filtration don't produce much abrasive junk in the oil. Otherwise, Purolator would've either mended its ways or gone out of business by now.
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Looks good. Thanx for the C&P.
Look good?
Z06, read my reply again. It reads,LOOKS GOOD.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Looks good. Thanx for the C&P.
Look good?
Z06, read my reply again. It reads,LOOKS GOOD.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I quit using Tearlators a long while back, for this very reason. While it seemed anecdotal at first, it's become a pattern. And these are just the ones we see; what of the tens of thousands that are used and changed out and never cut open by John Q Public? Well never know the true exposure, but what I see from long term Cut-n-posts here is NOT good.
I do, however, have some questions/comments ...
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCI shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
That in mind from above, how much "flow" is seen going through the tear point? That is VERY hard to estimate, and would only be revealed in some very elaborate testing in a lab. It's an answer we'll likely never get.
But ... and this is what I've been asking about for years ... how much does this matter?
I'm not in any way happy about a media tear, but the engineer in me wants to know the true effect in a measurable sense. It would be great if we could get some UOAs to go along with these "tears", to see if we can find any correlation of wear increase in a substantial manner. Undoubtedly no person will advocate that a tear is a good thing. But how much of a bad-thing is this really? Conceptually we all cringe at this. But what is the real world willing to reveal to us?
Is a tear good? No way.
Is a tear bad? Probably, but by how much?
Really bad? Mostly bad? Somewhat bad? Barely bad? Hardly discernibly bad?
PLEASE - the next time someone posts a "torn media" filter thread, can we get some UOA data that coincides with the OFCI, and we can start to build a knowledge base around this topic?
FINALLY!
I quit using Tearlators a long while back, for this very reason. While it seemed anecdotal at first, it's become a pattern. And these are just the ones we see; what of the tens of thousands that are used and changed out and never cut open by John Q Public? Well never know the true exposure, but what I see from long term Cut-n-posts here is NOT good.
I do, however, have some questions/comments ...
When does this tear happen? I have a theory (no proof, so don't flame me). The greatest amount of force available to tear at the media must likely be when a dry filter gets hit with 40-80psi on the upstream side at start-up, and no pressure on the downstream side (ala fresh OFCI shoves hard and fast against a dry media that has no resistance side the tube. That would induce a LARGE dP. It's likely NOT after many days of use, because if the ADBV is working properly, the dP is minimal with oil on both sides of the media. Therefore MY THEORY is that these tears happen almost immediately. So essentially the entire OCI is run with a compromised pleat resulting in a leak path. The only other time it might happen is if the ADBV is failing repeatedly, so that this large dP happens daily, and the repeated cold-start pounding finally tears the pleat from it's adhesive.
That in mind from above, how much "flow" is seen going through the tear point? That is VERY hard to estimate, and would only be revealed in some very elaborate testing in a lab. It's an answer we'll likely never get.
But ... and this is what I've been asking about for years ... how much does this matter?
I'm not in any way happy about a media tear, but the engineer in me wants to know the true effect in a measurable sense. It would be great if we could get some UOAs to go along with these "tears", to see if we can find any correlation of wear increase in a substantial manner. Undoubtedly no person will advocate that a tear is a good thing. But how much of a bad-thing is this really? Conceptually we all cringe at this. But what is the real world willing to reveal to us?
Is a tear good? No way.
Is a tear bad? Probably, but by how much?
Really bad? Mostly bad? Somewhat bad? Barely bad? Hardly discernibly bad?
PLEASE - the next time someone posts a "torn media" filter thread, can we get some UOA data that coincides with the OFCI, and we can start to build a knowledge base around this topic?
FINALLY!
I have a yellow can P1 on the shelf in my shed that I took off of my engine last month. I haven't cut it open yet, BUT the filter media has so many tears in it that Freddy Kruger probably played a major part in doing it!
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