Camaro ZL1 tranny: 2 more gears for overkill
- Thread starter A_Harman
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10 speed transmission in a vehicle with a positive displacement V8 of more than 600hp?
That's about as useful as chrome fender trim, GTS blackouts, and gold curb feelers.
That's about as useful as chrome fender trim, GTS blackouts, and gold curb feelers.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
How many 1457cc VW Scirocco engines does it take to make 640 ft*lbs of torque?
It takes 6.4.
I'm not saying mine is better, I'm saying that the ideal engine would have enough torque at idle and a high enough redline that one gear would do 0-60 in six or so seconds and on to 150 ish mph.
Gears are only used because of the relatively narrow power bands our engines make, and their limited ability to rev to astronomical RPMs.
Hence, a better engine needs less gears.
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
How many 1457cc VW Scirocco engines does it take to make 640 ft*lbs of torque?
It takes 6.4.
I'm not saying mine is better, I'm saying that the ideal engine would have enough torque at idle and a high enough redline that one gear would do 0-60 in six or so seconds and on to 150 ish mph.
Gears are only used because of the relatively narrow power bands our engines make, and their limited ability to rev to astronomical RPMs.
Hence, a better engine needs less gears.
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
WHAT??? The new LT4 is one of the best, if not the best performance engine GM has ever built!
Not disputing that the LT4 is good, but see my previous comments on the matter as far as torque, speed, tractive effort, power band and the flexibility required to do all of it with one gear.
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
WHAT??? The new LT4 is one of the best, if not the best performance engine GM has ever built!
Not disputing that the LT4 is good, but see my previous comments on the matter as far as torque, speed, tractive effort, power band and the flexibility required to do all of it with one gear.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
10 speed transmission in a vehicle with a positive displacement V8 of more than 600hp?
That's about as useful as chrome fender trim, GTS blackouts, and gold curb feelers.
I think that's probably true. Yet there is a market for that kind of stuff. Just 'cause people want it.
10 speed transmission in a vehicle with a positive displacement V8 of more than 600hp?
That's about as useful as chrome fender trim, GTS blackouts, and gold curb feelers.
I think that's probably true. Yet there is a market for that kind of stuff. Just 'cause people want it.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
Guess what this is from?
It does only have one gear ratio too. Not a good track day car though... I read that they thought about putting in a 2 speed trans but decided its not worth the bother and it goes fast enough with one.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
Guess what this is from?
It does only have one gear ratio too. Not a good track day car though... I read that they thought about putting in a 2 speed trans but decided its not worth the bother and it goes fast enough with one.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Olas
More gears only show how badly designed the engine is.
A sufficient toy flexible engine should only need one gear.
Are you skyship?
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
No, I'm Nick.
I know about the relationship between road speed and tractive effort based of gear selection, and maintain that a sufficiently flexible engine would not need gears.
OK then, so calculate it all out and post your results showing the torque curve of an engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio.
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
I don't have to. I'm still waiting for you to post the torque curve of the engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio in the drivetrain.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
I don't have to. I'm still waiting for you to post the torque curve of the engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio in the drivetrain.
I wonder how it would do against a good Powerglide bolted to the same engine in a 1/4 run?
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
I don't have to. I'm still waiting for you to post the torque curve of the engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio in the drivetrain.
imagine, if you will, a strait line. It remains straight from idle to redline, whilst maintaining a constant 1500lbs ft. Redlines at 20k. 4 wheel drive, cut slicks, gross weight 850 lbs.
Any questions?
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
AUC, or Area Under Curve is what matters here.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears.
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
I don't have to. I'm still waiting for you to post the torque curve of the engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio in the drivetrain.
imagine, if you will, a strait line. It remains straight from idle to redline, whilst maintaining a constant 1500lbs ft. Redlines at 20k. 4 wheel drive, cut slicks, gross weight 850 lbs.
Any questions?
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
I don't have to. I'm still waiting for you to post the torque curve of the engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio in the drivetrain.
imagine, if you will, a strait line. It remains straight from idle to redline, whilst maintaining a constant 1500lbs ft. Redlines at 20k. 4 wheel drive, cut slicks, gross weight 850 lbs.
Any questions?
Yes. Why have you changed the subject? First, you complained about the ZL1 engine not having a broad enough torque curve, so GM had to crutch it with a 10-speed transmission. So I challenged you to mathematically describe an engine that would go into the ZL1 that would match its performance with only a single gear transmission. So now you come back with a hand-grenade engine in an 850-pound car. Arguing with you is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Get real. You have just described an engine that makes a peak power of 5712 HP.
The Devel 16 makes a peak of 5000 HP, so it's hardly unrealistic. besides, nobody said anything about realism until AFTER I described the curve. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader.
However, the point remains that a sufficiently flexible engine doesn't need gears.
Can you disprove my assertion?
I don't have to. I'm still waiting for you to post the torque curve of the engine that will match the ZL1's performance with a single gear ratio in the drivetrain.
imagine, if you will, a strait line. It remains straight from idle to redline, whilst maintaining a constant 1500lbs ft. Redlines at 20k. 4 wheel drive, cut slicks, gross weight 850 lbs.
Any questions?
Yes. Why have you changed the subject? First, you complained about the ZL1 engine not having a broad enough torque curve, so GM had to crutch it with a 10-speed transmission. So I challenged you to mathematically describe an engine that would go into the ZL1 that would match its performance with only a single gear transmission. So now you come back with a hand-grenade engine in an 850-pound car. Arguing with you is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: daddi
Hopefully it will shift better than the junk 8l90 8 speed in my new Sierra.
Agreed on that point. I drove a Silverado w/ this trans and it just felt as if it was hunting constantly.
This is the GM/Ford partnered trans, hopefully they got it right.
Hopefully it will shift better than the junk 8l90 8 speed in my new Sierra.
Agreed on that point. I drove a Silverado w/ this trans and it just felt as if it was hunting constantly.
This is the GM/Ford partnered trans, hopefully they got it right.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Can you disprove my assertion?
Sure... you've been hit in the face too many times and have lost significant cognitive function:
Originally Posted By: Olas
From first hand experience, I can tell you that bending your steering wheel with your head is SIGNIFICANTLY less painful tha having your airbag break your nose and cheekbone.
CTE is serious business. Have yourself checked out.
Can you disprove my assertion?
Sure... you've been hit in the face too many times and have lost significant cognitive function:
Originally Posted By: Olas
From first hand experience, I can tell you that bending your steering wheel with your head is SIGNIFICANTLY less painful tha having your airbag break your nose and cheekbone.
CTE is serious business. Have yourself checked out.
Originally Posted By: Olas
imagine, if you will, a strait line. It remains straight from idle to redline, whilst maintaining a constant 1500lbs ft. Redlines at 20k. 4 wheel drive, cut slicks, gross weight 850 lbs.
Any questions?
Even if you had some crazy assed unicorn of an engine like what you're speaking of, you'd still need some kind of transmission. An in/out box with a clutch (because we all know you love manuals) really wouldn't work long term due the severe load and slipping necessary to get moving. Sure you could dump the clutch or be generally aggressive with it, but then it'd about break your neck taking off. It'd also be very hard on the rest of the drive train too. The only thing I could see working is some kind of hydro setup.
imagine, if you will, a strait line. It remains straight from idle to redline, whilst maintaining a constant 1500lbs ft. Redlines at 20k. 4 wheel drive, cut slicks, gross weight 850 lbs.
Any questions?
Even if you had some crazy assed unicorn of an engine like what you're speaking of, you'd still need some kind of transmission. An in/out box with a clutch (because we all know you love manuals) really wouldn't work long term due the severe load and slipping necessary to get moving. Sure you could dump the clutch or be generally aggressive with it, but then it'd about break your neck taking off. It'd also be very hard on the rest of the drive train too. The only thing I could see working is some kind of hydro setup.
Originally Posted By: Olas
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears
Why ?
transmissions give you all the area under the curve...make the curve bigger.
Your ideal torque curve would give (for an example) 50hp at 50MPH, 100hp at 100MPH. An infinitely variable transmission would give you 100hp at both of those speeds, and every speed before and after.
The one with the transmission would win every single time.
Even YOUR ideal theoretical engine would be faster with a transmission.
The theoretical engine in question would make 1500 lbs ft at idle, and continue to make 1500 lbs ft all the way to its 20,000 rpm redline.
One gear does it all, if the engine is flexible enough.
Again, it's only the deficiencies in engine design that necessitate gears
Why ?
transmissions give you all the area under the curve...make the curve bigger.
Your ideal torque curve would give (for an example) 50hp at 50MPH, 100hp at 100MPH. An infinitely variable transmission would give you 100hp at both of those speeds, and every speed before and after.
The one with the transmission would win every single time.
Even YOUR ideal theoretical engine would be faster with a transmission.
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: Olas
Can you disprove my assertion?
Sure... you've been hit in the face too many times and have lost significant cognitive function:
Originally Posted By: Olas
From first hand experience, I can tell you that bending your steering wheel with your head is SIGNIFICANTLY less painful tha having your airbag break your nose and cheekbone.
CTE is serious business. Have yourself checked out.
This post made me laugh
its accurate! One time I got hit in the head by a car, causing a 3 day coma and 76 stitches in my face. Then there was the time I fell down a waterfall I was trying to climb, but the majority of it is cumulative, LNG term damage from being so [censored] tall that I hit my head on door frames quite often.
And ive been checked out more times than I care to remember, for cte and many other things but thanks for your concern
Originally Posted By: Olas
Can you disprove my assertion?
Sure... you've been hit in the face too many times and have lost significant cognitive function:
Originally Posted By: Olas
From first hand experience, I can tell you that bending your steering wheel with your head is SIGNIFICANTLY less painful tha having your airbag break your nose and cheekbone.
CTE is serious business. Have yourself checked out.
This post made me laugh
And ive been checked out more times than I care to remember, for cte and many other things but thanks for your concern
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