Do that by measuring cylinder pressure, plotting it against volume for a complete combustion cycle, and doing the math. That's not a new concept to engine R&D, 'tho not very practical for Average Joe. The power so determined is called indicated power (as opposed to brake power).
CAFE Standards in the US and Oil Grades
- Thread starter johdirt784
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Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
IDK was ACEA 5W-30 available in Europe in the 1970s-80's?
ACEA only came about in the mid-90s.
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
Yep. Here is the temp chart for the 2020 rav4 uk manual. It says to choose based on what the temp range will be during the next oil interval. If the temp will be over 10 deg F, 15w-40 is perfectly fine oil.
The 'B' caption just points out that 0w-16 is what was used for the factory fill.
And in the US we are told that 0w-16 is what you must use. Oh, you can put 0w-20 in it, but must be replaced with 0w-16 ASAP.
Cafe BS.
Yes, it's CAFE BS all the way. And so many people are fooled into thinking that engines are "specifically designed" for a specific oil viscosity.
Nice to see an oil viscosity by ambient temp chart. Been some time.
Toyota mandated 0w20 in my '13 Scion xd with 2Zr-FE. They even had a Service bulletin, Tech Tip S-TT-0073-13 reaffirming the mandate. To throw another bone in, they extended max OCI to 10k miles for models that mandated 0w20, only. For models that gave you a choice of 0w20 or 5W20 they mandated max OCI's of 5k mi. No matter the oil type. Like my '14 Scion xb. Also, if you must add 5W20, change it out soon.
Note the 4 reasons for this mandate. The third one is reduced waste stream, which some think is the reason behind their claim of "forever" ATF and coolant. Waste charges in some markets? But how does a 0W20 qualify as a 10k mi. oil and not 5W20? Assuming both are decent full syn's.
Excerpt from bulletin:
"Starting with the 2010 model year, Scion began a gradual transition to the use of synthetic Ow-20 viscosity engine oil.
There are multiple benefits of this oil, including: • Reduced friction and wear on engine surfaces • Improved fuel economy • Reduction in waste oil stream (in vehicles approved for 10,000 mile oil change intervals) • Reduced maintenance cost (in vehicles approved for 10,000 mile oil change intervals)
Due to the improved performance and durability of Ow-20 synthetic oil, Scion has extended the oil change intervals to 10,000 miles for vehicles that require this oil (except for FR-S). With this change, the following should be noted: • Only Scion vehicles in which Ow-20 oil is mandatory have been approved for extended oil change intervals • Vehicles in which Ow-20 is an option to 5w-20 (or 5w-30) will continue to require 5,000 mile change intervals, even if Ow-20 oil is used • In the case of vehicles with 10,000 mile oil change intervals, the 5,000 mile service interval has not been eliminated . The traditional 5,000 mile maintenance procedures (such as tire rotation) will continue to be required , and the fluid levels (including engine oil) will need to be checked and adjusted at this time • If the vehicle operation meets the standard criteria for "Special Operating Conditions" such as: driving off-road , on dirt roads, towing a trailer, making repeated short trips under 32° F, or extensive idling; the engine oil must be replaced at 5,000 mile intervals, regardless of oil used. Exception is FR-S, where the oil must be replaced every 3,750 miles, under "Special Operating Conditions"
Toyota mandated 0w20 in my '13 Scion xd with 2Zr-FE. They even had a Service bulletin, Tech Tip S-TT-0073-13 reaffirming the mandate. To throw another bone in, they extended max OCI to 10k miles for models that mandated 0w20, only. For models that gave you a choice of 0w20 or 5W20 they mandated max OCI's of 5k mi. No matter the oil type. Like my '14 Scion xb. Also, if you must add 5W20, change it out soon.
Note the 4 reasons for this mandate. The third one is reduced waste stream, which some think is the reason behind their claim of "forever" ATF and coolant. Waste charges in some markets? But how does a 0W20 qualify as a 10k mi. oil and not 5W20? Assuming both are decent full syn's.
Excerpt from bulletin:
"Starting with the 2010 model year, Scion began a gradual transition to the use of synthetic Ow-20 viscosity engine oil.
There are multiple benefits of this oil, including: • Reduced friction and wear on engine surfaces • Improved fuel economy • Reduction in waste oil stream (in vehicles approved for 10,000 mile oil change intervals) • Reduced maintenance cost (in vehicles approved for 10,000 mile oil change intervals)
Due to the improved performance and durability of Ow-20 synthetic oil, Scion has extended the oil change intervals to 10,000 miles for vehicles that require this oil (except for FR-S). With this change, the following should be noted: • Only Scion vehicles in which Ow-20 oil is mandatory have been approved for extended oil change intervals • Vehicles in which Ow-20 is an option to 5w-20 (or 5w-30) will continue to require 5,000 mile change intervals, even if Ow-20 oil is used • In the case of vehicles with 10,000 mile oil change intervals, the 5,000 mile service interval has not been eliminated . The traditional 5,000 mile maintenance procedures (such as tire rotation) will continue to be required , and the fluid levels (including engine oil) will need to be checked and adjusted at this time • If the vehicle operation meets the standard criteria for "Special Operating Conditions" such as: driving off-road , on dirt roads, towing a trailer, making repeated short trips under 32° F, or extensive idling; the engine oil must be replaced at 5,000 mile intervals, regardless of oil used. Exception is FR-S, where the oil must be replaced every 3,750 miles, under "Special Operating Conditions"
Scion one of the most problem models build by Toyota in recent years.
Just bumped up to M1 ESP 5w30 from running M1 0w20 EP. While M1 EP is no doubt great oil, I must say I am more convinced than ever 0w20 is a CAFE mandate. Mind you I had around 5k/10 months on this oil with an M1 filter. Before the oil change, I was hesitant to rev past 5k because of how it was sounding. It was almost like a chore for VVT to kick in. This car has a sound tube and the sound was very raspy and the car wasn't revving smoothly. I also did transmission and diff oil changes so I can't really isolate variables here but the engine now feels like it wants to rev smoothly. I also dont get the strange noises from cold idle anymore. I think with GDI 0w20 gets diluted here and you're at the bare limit of HTHS. I suppose it also depends on your usage and engine type, but for a little 2 liter with a redline of 7500 RPM, I don't anticipate using 0w20 again.
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I think all that really matters is, WHP.
Parasitic drag does not reduce engine power, it just prevents that power from reaching the wheels.
I guess, if you just look at just the total HP potential in the actual explosion in the combustion chamber. Everything inside the engine and bolted to the engine (alt, water pump, etc) that results in a "parasitic loss" to the resulting HP at the flywheel is part of the entire engine system. Engine manufacturers rate the engine HP at the flywheel, which includes all the parasitic losses involved. And yes, the HP at the wheels is what really matters.
Thanks for posting. So the 0w20 TGMO oil was developed by XOM and it is unique and very good quality. I suspect the durability of the 0w20 is known to Toyota, so that is why their adamant about using it.
Has anyone used an oil with a HT/HS of 3.5 in a car that calls for a 20 grade long term?
*There are still those that think you need a HT/HS of 3.5 min to keep an engine running exceptionally well once you're beyond the 200k mile mark.
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So why not drive alternator from the exhaust gas? 
There will always be exhaust gases. Heck, just drive the alternator and then use a more efficient electric water pump.
~1.6HP right there.
There will always be exhaust gases. Heck, just drive the alternator and then use a more efficient electric water pump.
~1.6HP right there.
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The temp range charts are useless when it's a engine made for 0-16, etc. Once in 0-16 / 0-20 it's all about fuel economy. That user manual chart is also a big lie as there is no oil that just goes off to the right with an arrow like that, the oils have max temp too.
Just means on the chart that those oils can be used in any ambient temperature experience on Earth. Venus might be a different story.
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
Well thank God you saved your 180 HP car from blowing up from thin CAFE oil using only about 70% PAO base. Whew, that was close!!!
Fixed the sentence for you.
One thread comes to my mind....
That one with Toyota Prius with 15w40 HDEO in its sump....
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Oh? So a 40 is ok to use where a 60 should be used when the temps are that hot?Just means on the chart that those oils can be used in any ambient temperature experience on Earth. Venus might be a different story.
I thought they had limits.
Why can a SAE40 be used hotter than a 15w40?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
How's the weather out there on the lake?Oh? So a 40 is ok to use where a 60 should be used when the temps are that hot?
I thought they had limits.
Why can a SAE40 be used hotter than a 15w40?
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