bright star in the western sky

Status
Not open for further replies.
Though it's been decades since I've been in HS, I have participated in many astronomy education events for all age groups and visited many of these schools and interacted with lots of kids & their parents over the years. Furthermore, my background is in engineering so I can speak from there.

Young kids interests are easy to attract. You show them something new, interesting, dynamic, a model, an experiment, help them with something hands on, etc. They get very exicited, exclaim it's 'cool' and want to share it with their friends and tell their parents. It is the 'spark' of interest.

As they age, they learn more, see more, but school becomes boring compared to it. I remember this even in the 70's before the 'digital revolution'. I chose science because it had labs, did experiments, was investigative and hands on. I wasn't always sitting at a desk for an hour, nor listening to a lecture. There was more interaction both with students and the teachers. Oceanography had several big aquariums with lots of intersting fish and objects in them. There was also the pumps, filters, tubing, buzzing...something was moving, going on. To a kid like me this was all fascinating.

I also realized that in the science classes, there weren't the jerks, the disrupters, etc. They were in the 'easy' art classes & book-keeping where there was little discipline. Plus science was tougher, required study, and thinking. They weren't into that. Also, I don't think science was required at the time. I took it because things always happened. I even found my math classes boring. It was just lecture.

So fast-forward to today....I wonder how many schools still have chemistry and physics LABS, biology classrooms with baby chickens studying genetics, wood & metal shop, regular demonstrations of experiments where something dynamic happens. In chemistry this means color changes, bangs, smoke, like a true erupting volcano with sparks & fire instead of baking soda & vinegar, reactions that stink, setting off the fire alarm every so often, experiments with dry ice, etc.

In physics this means physical demonstrations & experiments of electricity, magnetism, light, optics, construction, why bridges are built the way they are, Tesla coils, Van de Graaf generators, tennis ball canons, ballistics, airplanes & rockets. Give kids a chance to work with their hands, with tools, with chemicals and with close supervision and rules that must be obeyed.

A huge neglected part is audio. What kid, particularly male, isn't interested in bass? Loud music? A great stereo? What they need is someone to teach them, guide them. So you like deep bass, right "yeah, yeah". You want to learn how to make it? "yeah, yeah" Want to learn how to build your own cabinets? "Yeah, yea!" Want to learn how to hook all this up? "You bet". OK with that in mind, we'll study math, trig, electicity, magnetism, physics, acoustics, the science of sound, the properties of a bass driver, why some are better than others, why the box construction, dimensions of the cabinet, size of the cabinet are important. There is A LOT to it. They'll have to learn about resistance, inductance, capacitance, current, voltage, power, wavelengths, the audio spectrum and a LOT more.

But they'll be interested, they'll understand WHY you have to learn the math, the trig, the science, etc. because it's all a part of designing and building a great subwoofer and loudspeaker. Everytime they ask "Why do I have to learn all this?" You turn on the well-designed sub and rattle the walls, then you play the mis-aligned one in comparison.

But you can't teach science like you do english, multiculturism, government, diversity, ethnic studies, or even math. It won't work. It takes money to buy this stuff and experienced people who enjoy teaching to do it. Further you need a 'true believer' in this method to plow the road through the beaucrats, unions, paperwork, government, school board, etc. to set something like this up.

When they gripe there's no room in the curiculum (sp?) for this, then perhaps that's part of the problem! Remember, kids now have the internet, video & on-line games, music & video players, laptops, big-screen TV's, social media on various platforms, and a culture that emphasizes all of it. They use technology like this everyday, but it's transparent to them, they don't understand how it works, and most don't care. They don't appreciate it. Neither do most adults. As Dire Straits sang long ago "I want my MTV."

So the schools are competing with this. Talk about a wide gulf. Most education is stuck in a really, old paradigm. Fossilized. I was bored with it in the 70's, save for the science. Now, much of the experimental part of science has been removed along with the labs, auto-shop, wood & metal shop, etc., AND kids now have hand-held computers connected to the WWW and their friends FB pages. That's A LOT to compete with.

Certainly there ARE innovative schools who do a good job of educating kids, keeping them interested, and show them some of these things, but I'll bet most don't because they're run by people who are clueless, ignorant and perhaps fearful of it. After all, they set up the 'every kid should go to college' system now in place. Which is highly flawed in my opinion. But they've implemented that system and ignored much of what I've mentioned above and the results are all around us.

Many minority kids have been spoon-fed the wrong food during these years, passed onto college only to find they can't get in, it's unaffordable, or they get creamed by the amount of work because they're unable to function at the level required. They're now in a jr. college taking a remedial reading or math class, which is now very expensive. It's akin to taking drivers ed on a 5-lane freeway at 70mph in heavy traffic. Or throwing them into deep water when they're barely able to stay afloat, much less swim.

If you did that to many adults, they'd panic. Yet it's being done to 18yr olds. And the adults are actually surprised at the outcome of this?

I'll finish with a quick story. I had an older, rather gruff man I knew for a long time growing up as a kid. He was the 'throw them in the water to learn to swim" type. Was a royal PITA sometimes. So I took him out on my sailboat one time, a catamaran. You're much closer to the water, there ARE no brakes and no power save the wind. I asked him if he'd like to take the sheets & the tiller. "No, no, no...I'm fine..." So I challenged him "Come on..I'm here...I'm not going to let you do anything to harm us or my boat, give it a try" "No, no, no..." So I just let go of the rudder & the sheets. He nearly panicked. "What are you doing???" "Letting Mother Nature take over...watch" The boat slowly turned into the wind and stopped.

I realized then he was too afraid to try something new, to learn how to sail, that if he was ever 'thrown into the water to learn to swim', he would panic and drown. So much for braggadocio and old-fartism. You can't use that to float, swim, sail...or have success in college.

EOR.
 
They found a 1912 8th grade test that contains questions that look like college exam questions today. And this is for 8th grade students. Our school system is a disaster.

I think the answer has to be charter or private schools with mandatory parent involvement. Government pretty much fails in everything and the public school system is just one more example.
 
I would have to say if I saw the ISS moving across the sky, I would only know it was a satellite, I probably wouldn't know it was the ISS.

That said, I have a small telescope and know a little astronomy. I've gotten a few "Wows" from my neighbors and their kids when I set it up in my driveway. I've shown them the moons of Jupiter, the rings of Saturn, and the craters of the moon.

When Venus made its last transit I had it set up with the sun screen, and I invited the neighbors over. Some of the adults had heard about the transit, but didn't know what it was until I explained. Still, lots of "wows" from kids and adults, who had never seen the sunspots, let alone a transit. When I explained the next time this happens will be over 100 years from now, I was half expecting a nonchalant "big deal" from the kids, but they seemed to understand that they would probably never see this again in their lifetime, and they even thanked me for inviting them.
 
sleddriver, that was probably the best post about education I can remember reading on BITOG. I kept looking for pieces to excerpt and quote but quickly realized I'd have to quote the whole thing! Bravo, sir. Wish more had your perspective.

As to your question about how many schools still actually make things happen in science classes: so few that I don't even want to contemplate it. Other than in private and "alternative" schools, it's all being pushed aside -- partly for budgetary reasons, and partly to make room for preparation for standardized tests that have nothing to do with science.

I student-taught at a public high school of more than 3,000 students. For the 2011-2012 school year, the total budget for the science department (other than teacher salaries, which were pitiful) was... $0.00. That's not a typo. Zero dollars and zero cents. When kids aren't creating and experimenting, it's no longer science class; it's just another breeding ground for anti-scientific attitudes and skills (i.e. sit down, shut up, listen).
 
Apparently, we are fortunate. We still have dissection in MIDDLE SCHOOL science, let alone high school. The kids to chemistry experiments as well as take the standardized tests.

(I don't recall hearing about physics, but our boy doesn't volunteer as much as our oldest daughter did. She didn't take physics.)

But if schools are not offering real science, with labs, then yes they are doing the students and parents a disservice.

I cannot imagine if college had been the first place I'd been in a laboratory.
 
Dissection and chemistry experiments are the bare minimum -- but yes, if you still have those, you are very fortunate.

Some school districts and private schools are doing VERY well in this regard, even as the majority of the country goes downhill. My old high school now has a whole class that essentially consists entirely of experimentation. Meanwhile, literally just a few miles up the road, the entire Philadelphia school district is literally on the brink of grinding to a halt.

As always, the best in America meets or beats the best in the world. It's the average that's troublesome.
 
Depends what the average is. There are plenty of places where the average is just fine for a healthy, happy, productive life...
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
sleddriver, that was probably the best post about education I can remember reading on BITOG. I kept looking for pieces to excerpt and quote but quickly realized I'd have to quote the whole thing! Bravo, sir. Wish more had your perspective.

As to your question about how many schools still actually make things happen in science classes: so few that I don't even want to contemplate it. Other than in private and "alternative" schools, it's all being pushed aside -- partly for budgetary reasons, and partly to make room for preparation for standardized tests that have nothing to do with science.

I student-taught at a public high school of more than 3,000 students. For the 2011-2012 school year, the total budget for the science department (other than teacher salaries, which were pitiful) was... $0.00. That's not a typo. Zero dollars and zero cents. When kids aren't creating and experimenting, it's no longer science class; it's just another breeding ground for anti-scientific attitudes and skills (i.e. sit down, shut up, listen).

Thank you for the kind words. Pleased to hear they ring true. Private schools have quite a bit of latitude and invest in more 'hands-on' activities, as their students & teachers are not constantly occupied with 'standardized testing."

Investigative science requires a good deal of critical thinking. It seems that it's no longer emphasized or even taught. I'm sure there are a few though who follow Toto instead of the big, scary monster spouting fire and realize they are far more capable & intelligent than what's being presented to them.

I wonder if anyone has ever turned managements tree upside down and shown it to the school board, or politician to show them, they've got it upside down: It's not about funding management, it's about funding education. Kids are First!
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver


I wonder if anyone has ever turned managements tree upside down and shown it to the school board, or politician to show them, they've got it upside down: It's not about funding management, it's about funding education. Kids are First!


So you are saying tell managers that we don't need so many managers
smile.gif


Not that I disagree with you. I simply believe it will fall on deaf ears.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
So you are saying tell managers that we don't need so many managers
smile.gif


Not that I disagree with you. I simply believe it will fall on deaf ears.

Yes. I find it interesting that much mid-level management has been trimed out of businesses, but yet it's grown tremendously over the years in government and K-12 administration.

When teachers have to buy even simple things for their own classrooms, out of their own paycheck or do without, something is seriously wrong.
 
We get lists of things all the kids need to bring. X number of boxes of tissues, crayons, baby wipes. Things that go into a closet for general use.

Well that ended with highschool, but the K-8 schools "required" students to bring the stuff in.

We have three school districts in a town of 30K people. One of the districts wanted a tax increase, but it was voted down in the general election 11/2012.

Why three districts? One district that has a middle school and elementary school. One district with the two high school buildings, and one for the remaining middle and elementary schools.

Meanwhile, the county where I grew up had one district total.

Maybe, instead of three districts and all the redundant support staff, we collapse that to one or two districts so there are more funds for the classroom and less spent on administrative costs?

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: javacontour
So you are saying tell managers that we don't need so many managers
smile.gif


Not that I disagree with you. I simply believe it will fall on deaf ears.

Yes. I find it interesting that much mid-level management has been trimed out of businesses, but yet it's grown tremendously over the years in government and K-12 administration.

When teachers have to buy even simple things for their own classrooms, out of their own paycheck or do without, something is seriously wrong.
 
Unifying the districts isn't necessarily a slam-dunk for efficiency. It could result in a deeper administrative hierarchy and/or an administration that is less in-touch with individual localities.

How different are the communities served by the districts?
 
One community! It's a town of 30K people, some surrounding rural and smaller communities. About 700 students graduate high school each year.

The district with the K-5 and 6-8 buildings wants to keep it's Wal*Mart fueled tax base. Of course the high school covers all the K-8 kids fed by the other two districts. At the bare minimum, why have two separate K-8 districts that feed into one HS district?

Back in the day, my high school, that covered the entire county was about 1/2 the size and there is ONE district covering the entire county.

Here we have three districts in one town. Smaller area, more people, but we don't need 3x+ the administration.
 
In my old county the Superintendent had not one, but TWO assistants who each make 90k per year! Classic example of top heavy admin, it's bureaucracy at its finest. I can put several good teachers on the job for those salaries and maybe help create some productive societal contributors.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
There is actually a shortage of students in engineering classes in the USA.

That's not because the kids are dumb. It's because they don't want to knock themselves out, spending their youth with their nose in the books and tuition, for a career that is marginally rewarding, has unpaid overtime, and an industry that beats them with the productivity stick. They'd rather go into finance, which gets them a higher income with less grief.

Engineering is continued to be outsourced overseas. If the USA could do the same with medical doctors, dentists, and lawyers, it would.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top