bright star in the western sky

[JANDSZIRKLE]

Part of the struggle OP faces, IMO is the lack of concern or interest most kids today place on science.
I have been on more than one field trip with two of our kids in middle school too our nations capitol too visit the museums and monuments. Most of these middle school kids could care less about going into the museums, they would rather hang out and watch street performers play drums than actually spend a couple hours in the museums and learn about where we came from, what we have been through as mankind and get a glimpse of where we are headed. In short, the lackluster attitude children have today about there education is about too come too the forefront and cripple this nation. You can learn alot about where youre going by looking at where you have been. Finding a way too stimulate there senses could be as easy as a survival field trip.

 

[javacontour]

Oh the irony.

One might say the same regarding the lack of interest in proper grammar

But I tend to agree. STEM is not cool for most. This is why we import so many in the IT and science sectors. Can't find enough interested in those fields. But there is an endless supply of immigrants willing to study STEM and fill jobs in the US.

What we have here are folks who think you should make $15/hr flipping burgers and/or make $100k/year right out of college with your bachelors degree.

Originally Posted By: JANDSZIRKLE
Part of the struggle OP faces, IMO is the lack of concern or interest most kids today place on science.
I have been on more than one field trip with two of our kids in middle school too our nations capitol too visit the museums and monuments. Most of these middle school kids could care less about going into the museums, they would rather hang out and watch street performers play drums than actually spend a couple hours in the museums and learn about where we came from, what we have been through as mankind and get a glimpse of where we are headed. In short, the lackluster attitude children have today about there education is about too come too the forefront and cripple this nation. You can learn alot about where youre going by looking at where you have been. Finding a way too stimulate there senses could be as easy as a survival field trip.

 

[d00df00d]

Just realized the OP blames children for not being interested in education. I used to have that perspective until I actually worked in public schools.

90% of the time, schools fail kids before kids fail schools. If a kid isn't paying attention, it's probably in large part because his or her school sucks.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
STEM is not cool for most. This is why we import so many in the IT and science sectors.

This should be no surprise. We do a terrible job of presenting STEM to our school students, and our schools tend to reward obedience and memorization over intelligence and creativity...

 

[javacontour]

That's part of it. The other part, and probably even larger, is if the parents don't care about education.

A kid who wants to learn probably can't be stopped. But for a kid to want to learn they need parents that make it a priority.

Teachers only have so much time a day with the students. The parents have two to three times as much time as a teacher, and therefore have a much greater impact.

Bad teachers don't help, but it won't do much good to blame only the teachers. I've seen it locally. The East St Louis school district has some of the highest spending per student and some of the highest numbers in terms of teachers with advanced credentials, which should mean they are better trained than other districts. yet the students keep doing poorly in most if not all measured metrics.

Why?

The parents don't value education. Just getting their child to qualify for the latest government handout.

Maybe those entitlements for parents should be based on the academic performance and attendance records for their children?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Just realized the OP blames children for not being interested in education. I used to have that perspective until I actually worked in public schools.

90% of the time, schools fail kids before kids fail schools. If a kid isn't paying attention, it's probably in large part because his or her school sucks.

 

[d00df00d]

Pretty sure there isn't a single line in that post that I agree with, and I think the last two lines are arguably quite sinister.

I'm not going to weigh in further unless asked directly, because I don't want to get into a battle of Internet prognostication. I just wanted to distance myself from those arguments.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
and our schools tend to reward obedience and memorization over intelligence and creativity...


THIS. I agree that many times the school fails the child. Most education has been reduced to a lower common denominator to acommodate the delayed/damaged instead of rising to challenge the intelligent child.

My wife has 16 years of experience in Fl public schools treating developmentally delayed children as an OTR/L. Many of these kids are simply left at school by the parents who then want nothing to do with the therapist's recommendations. That would be like work or something...

 

[d00df00d]

I agree completely, with one small revision: As far as I can tell, the bar is low not so much to accommodate the "delayed/damaged" (that's a whole can of worms right there), but mainly so that school districts can produce good scores on standardized tests with a terrible model of education (i.e. "sit down, shut up, listen to the teacher").

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Pretty sure there isn't a single line in that post that I agree with, and I think the last two lines are arguably quite sinister.

I'm not going to weigh in further unless asked directly, because I don't want to get into a battle of Internet prognostication. I just wanted to distance myself from those arguments.


oilBabe is a school social worker. The stories she shares about students in her district makes you wonder how some kids survive to adulthood.

The numbers are easy to find. Illinois provides school, report cards for every school and district. You can see how spending, teacher qualifications, graduation rates, ISAT tests and so forth stack up with state averages.

So much state and federal money is sent to ESL so they are not at a budget disadvantage compared to state averages. Yet fewer graduate, go on to college or meet, let alone exceed grade level in ISAT testing.

 

[d00df00d]

I agree with the facts you present. I disagree with the conclusions you draw on their basis.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^The above post illustrates why more funding is NOT the answer.

We've thrown so much moolah at the schools to get a negative return it may rank as one of our worst spending boondoggles.

Doodfood is also correct about the "system" being gamed. Wherever we set the metric someone will creatively design a program to extract the maximum dollar amount for their district. That used to be the superintendent's job!

 

[Mystic]

I seriously believe that there are a lot of high school graduates today who do not even know that World War II took place. And they probably would not care if somebody told them about it. There are a few that may be vaguely familiar with World War II and they probably would think the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

I meet high school graduates all the time who can hardly write and would be unable to spell any somewhat complicated word. If things are that bad in the public schools we need charter schools or private schools. Where maybe the parents would have a little more say in the education. Of course, the problem there is a lot of parents also do not care.

We will have to bring in people from countries like India, European countries, China, etc., for the medical doctors and the engineers that we need. There is actually a shortage of students in engineering classes in the USA.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^The above post illustrates why more funding is NOT the answer.

We've thrown so much moolah at the schools to get a negative return it may rank as one of our worst spending boondoggles.

Doodfood is also correct about the "system" being gamed. Wherever we set the metric someone will creatively design a program to extract the maximum dollar amount for their district. That used to be the superintendent's job!


Actually, what oilBabe said was many/most states were so resentful of no child left behind that they set the bar so high as to ensure the program was scrapped. Set the standards high, fail to achieve and then blame the program and/or request more funds.

What incentive is there for a district to need less money?

It takes involved parents to ensure their children are not pawns in a politcal game.

 

[TrevorS]

Parents are vital when it comes to education. It is no coincidence that Indian and Chinese kids do the best at school, both in India and China as well as in any western school system, and they come from a culture that respects education.

But teaching also needs to get smarter. With today's technology, kids should learn from videos and e-learning and do computerized tests. Teachers should then spend one on one time to clarify where kids have issues and also monitor e learning test results to determine which kids need help where.

Just like emerging nations are skipping landlines and desktop PCs and going straight to mobile phone and Internet, the masses in those countries will use technology to get educated. It will be a true global meritocracy. Those interested in getting educated will be able to and will reap the greatest rewards, those who aren't interested will eventually not prosper.

 

[d00df00d]

Our schools are "overfunded" in the sense that their ROI is terrible.

Our schools are "underfunded" in the sense that there isn't enough money in a lot of key places.

Both problems are traceable to the way our system of education is built. Teacher training programs suck. The tests we use to gauge school performance have little or nothing to do with real skills. Our goals (e.g. everyone must get into college or else they will be deemed failures in life) are counterproductive.

And we know a great deal about how to fix it, at least in theory! There are decades of research showing what does and does not work in education. We just haven't implemented it in any serious way.

The whole education system needs to be reformed STRUCTURALLY, to incorporate things that other schools and school systems do well. If that could be done, and done well, I'd bet good money that the calls for more OR less spending in education would largely fall silent. Teachers would stop complaining about being under-paid because their jobs would be easier and more fulfilling, schools would stop complaining because they'd operate more efficiently, and everyone else would stop complaining because we'd be seeing a good ROI.

Pipe dreams, eh?

 

[javacontour]

The problem with the current model is that parents expect to drop kids off at school and the teachers will turn out educated children.

My daughter is starting high school tomorrow. We are taking honors courses. I have no illusions that she will get it all in school. I will likely be helping her with geometry, rhetoric and biology. Not doing it for her, but helping her if she doesn't understand something or checking her homework. I am part of her education, which is why I said we are taking.....

 

[TrevorS]

One large irony is how some are complaining that today's kids are not interested in science, but throughout this "technically" orientated board there is so much "knowledge" that is actually based on feeling, that if this board is anyway representative of the everyday technical knowledge that kids get exposed to, it is little wonder they are how they are.

Their environment which includes the popular culture that parents choose to expose them to at home through cable TV choices, the social environment and pressures kids are exposed to with the importance placed on the latest fads, these all shape the interests that kids have.

We're all in some way responsible for that environment so need to ask what can we do that moves it in the direction we want to see.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
The problem with the current model is that parents expect to drop kids off at school and the teachers will turn out educated children.

My daughter is starting high school tomorrow. We are taking honors courses. I have no illusions that she will get it all in school. I will likely be helping her with geometry, rhetoric and biology. Not doing it for her, but helping her if she doesn't understand something or checking her homework. I am part of her education, which is why I said we are taking.....



Exactly. School is not a service, it needs to be a 5 way partnership. Kids, teachers, parents, communities, business.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Some of you nice folks never heard of the Teacher's Union.

My FIL is a 3 time County superintendent of a large Florida school district. His stories about bad teachers he could not fire would fill a book.

One of my clients is a retired principal from public schools. She also tells many stories of how the union rules prevented her from running her school for the benefit of its students.

When I factor in my Wife's experience it seems obvious to me that the Union has a huge say in our schools, and it's mostly for the benefit of its members. NOT the school children

 

[TrevorS]

Agreed