For those well rehearsed in Home Solar Energy ... cutting out the middleman?

[alarmguy]

Ok, I would like/love to have this site critiqued. I am seeing more and more of these ads directed to me on social media.
Im not actively looking for solar, unless it was going to be fully paid by the taxpayers and I always felt the solar sales industry was the prime benefactor of taxpayer rebates, now it seems at least at face value that the actual purchasers of solar will benefit from the tax rebates instead of the sales industry?

So for those of you, including @JeffKeryk does this sound legit?
Seems like we are moving in the right direction.

Project Solar | FSA

Project Solar cuts out the sales person and saves you thousands. Whether you opt for DIY or full service, we hold your hand through the whole process. Get solar for $1.50 a watt.

projectsolar.com

 

[UncleDave]

Nothing really here to see.

By middlemen they mean avoiding companies that sell install and permit gear and - you do it yourself.

You have always been able to buy solar equipment far cheaper than getting a quote from a dealer. If you can do it yourself great!

Most cant.

What the average guy doesn't do real well is - put it on the roof without messing up the roof, get a building permit, operation permit, commission and startup a system, and get final sign off by the permitting authority (without which your home insurance against fire is null and void) . Guys that do all that sell panels and inverters to, they mark them up from cost, but they totally deal in my experience.

There are plenty of good shops that have never once rung a doorbell.

 

[JeffKeryk]

@alarmguy there's about a bazillion variables, and they tend to be regional. In my case when I bought I had looked for 5 years. It's no secret CA energy costs are nuts.
A good place to start is Costco Sunrun; they gave me the straight skinny. Ultimately Infinity Energy out of Rocklin, CA earned my business. The arithmetic is pretty simple; get an install price, look at a year's electricity bill, and calculate break even point. I got a tax credit for a "Solar Project" which was for the solar and the new roof; that was March 2018. I figured I might buy an EV like the CA granola heads but little did I know it would be Dec 2018. It is a safe bet that electricity costs are not going down...

I love my solar. I probably pay $20 per month all in; maybe less. This is for the house with AC and a lotta computer stuff. I am retired so I spend a lot more time at home. My solar generates more annually than I use; I get paid low market as I am on NEM2. NEM3 is now in effect; owners get paid wholesale; solar in no where near the no-brainer it was. You snooze you lose bro.

PG&E rates have done nothing but go up since I went solar and will go up again this year, at least another $20 per month. My panels are guaranteed for 20 or 25 years, but will still generate. I will just be on my own for damage.

@OVERKILL has reviewed my installation; he is an excellent resource for equipment and other information. I believe @UncleDave did his due diligence and did a solar project as well.

Solar was an investment with an expected return like any other. If you need a roof and you can include it, it just might be a sweet deal. Yeah writing those big checks hurt but for the next 20 years I am sitting pretty.

Good luck. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. As our friend UD says, if it seems to good to be true it probably is.

 

[alarmguy]

Nothing really here to see.

By middlemen they mean avoiding companies that sell install and permit gear and - you do it yourself.

You have always been able to buy solar equipment far cheaper than getting a quote from a dealer. If you can do it yourself great!

Most cant.

What the average guy doesn't do real well is - put it on the roof without messing up the roof, get a building permit, operation permit, commission and startup a system, and get final sign off by the permitting authority (without which your home insurance against fire is null and void) . Guys that do all that sell panels and inverters to, they mark them up from cost, but they totally deal in my experience.

There are plenty of good shops that have never once rung a doorbell.

I can see you didnt read it. Do you have solar? I do appreciate responses. Im surprised no one else has, including @JeffKeryk who is the biggest proponent of solar I ever heard from.
I think you do have solar and if you do, once I finish this post, I assume you will feel that this is ONE HECK OF SLAM DUNK GOOD DEAL?
No middle man and half the cost. Fully installed by them and all permits.
Here is the part I guess you didnt see?

 

[UncleDave]

I can see you didnt read it. Do you have solar? I do appreciate responses. Im surprised no one else has, including @JeffKeryk who is the biggest proponent of solar I ever heard from.
I think you do have solar and if you do, once I finish this post, I assume you will feel that this is ONE HECK OF SLAM DUNK GOOD DEAL?
No middle man and half the cost. Fully installed by them and all permits.
Here is the part I guess you didnt see?


View attachment 197267

I did read it. Perhaps not every link out of the dozens, but enough to get the gist.

I do have solar, 3 kinds actually, solar for hot water, solar for electricity, solar on my RV - I have decades of experience with it.
Jeff and I compare contracts, system info, performance, and share our personal data with Overkill and engage in discussions about the subject.

I wouldn't pay anyone a 100.00 deposit for a third party portal when a local reputable firm will come to my house and do a proper job of analysis and quoting. Without a site inspection the quote isnt worth anything and you only get that after you pay money with this service.
You can get both for free.

The claim of cutting out the middleman is dubious at best as thats exactly what the service is - you could do it all on your own if you had the skills and knowledge that's cutting out the middle man.

It's not possible for anyone to tell you what kind of a "deal" you may be getting on a system that hasn't been configured or quoted for an install, the site inspected for issues, nor it it possible to recommend anything without analyzing your current bill and understanding what is possible from your roof space and orientation.

Show me the final price you expect to pay and what the ROI looks like on your specific install and I can tell you if you are getting a deal or not.
Then the system actually has to do what the estimates claim and THEN I/we/anyone can tell what your relative deal really was.

Im super curious to see how this goes for you if you go down this road, and what the final landed cost per KWH hour of gear will be and what you end up with.

This piecemeal approach very often ends up in frustration and finger pointing and in the end , costs more than just going with a known local entity. I do not wish that for you.

Best Sir!

 

[OVERKILL]

I did read it. Perhaps not every link out of the dozens, but enough to get the gist.

I do have solar, 3 kinds actually, solar for hot water, solar for electricity, solar on my RV - I have decades of experience with it.
Jeff and I compare contracts, system info, performance, and share our personal data with Overkill and engage in discussions about the subject.

I wouldn't pay anyone a 100.00 deposit for a third party portal when a local reputable firm will come to my house and do a proper job of analysis and quoting. Without a site inspection the quote isnt worth anything and you only get that after you pay money with this service.
You can get both for free.

The claim of cutting out the middleman is dubious at best as thats exactly what the service is - you could do it all on your own if you had the skills and knowledge that's cutting out the middle man.

It's not possible for anyone to tell you what kind of a "deal" you may be getting on a system that hasn't been configured or quoted for an install, the site inspected for issues, nor it it possible to recommend anything without analyzing your current bill and understanding what is possible from your roof space and orientation.

Show me the final price you expect to pay and what the ROI looks like on your specific install and I can tell you if you are getting a deal or not.
Then the system actually has to do what the estimates claim and THEN I/we/anyone can tell what your relative deal really was.

Im super curious to see how this goes for you if you go down this road, and what the final landed cost per KWH hour of gear will be and what you end up with.

This piecemeal approach very often ends up in frustration and finger pointing and in the end , costs more than just going with a known local entity. I do not wish that for you.

Best Sir!

Well stated!

Yes, NEM 2 was a bargain for anyone in Cali given the insane electricity rates and extremely generous feed-in rate given. As we've discussed, NEM 3 changed that considerably with the $0.04/kWh feed-in rate, which is, as I've noted:
- Designed to reduce the rate of uptake
- Reduce the impact of cumulative grid-tied solar capacity on retail rates
- Encourage those who are either forced (new builds) or choose to proceed with NEM 3 solar installs to couple it with a storage solution, reducing the morning/evening ramps generated by the solar output curve, where electricity is currently most expensive.

 

[alarmguy]

@UncleDave @JeffKeryk
Thanks for your responses. Not what I was expecting, though, many might have said the same about the Security Industry less then 2 decades ago or even Amazon.
I tend to think forward, I was one of the first I know using online shopping services, ordering computers, monitors and equipment online, at a time when people thought I was nuts entering Credit Card info. People no longer have a need for basic to advanced security system sales people.

I dont think solar panels are rocket science. It's pretty standard stuff now and so is the equipment. You have a roof, panels, a sun in the sky and compass, I dont see a reason for a salesperson that I KNOW (and personally knew) makes thousands of dollars and his sales company eating up the rest of the tax credit.

Online companies, Im talking small scale stuff. Dozen panels? 6 panels? single family stuff.
The homeowner is not installing anything, the homeowner is not the one getting permits. The homeowner is doing nothing, it's turn key. I point this out because clearly some are missing the point in post #4.

I think this will be the future for many, looking for a faster return on investment. Most only stay in a home for 8 years. Only 25% stay in their homes for more than 20 years and that number was MUCH lower (14%) before Covid.
Much like Amazon, heck who would have thought a bookseller would be selling department store items and now selling health care and filling drug prescriptions?
Well here I think I am looking at cutting our the salesperson and his company and actually becoming the benefactor of the tax credit.

Thanks for the thoughts, Im not discrediting anyones thoughts as long as they read post #4. Soup to nuts steps 1 through 5. Which I see some still missed the point, Step 3 of 5 is a site inspection.
Me personally? I doubt I would ever get solar, our electric is too cheap BUT if there was a cheap way to get solar I would, the "old standard" of having someone sell me a system is way to expensive to get a return on investment before I die or move to another home at 10 cents a kWh and why an online (The amazon way to solar) company that can do it efficiently and cheap would be the only way.
Many of you live in another universe of sky high electric rates, that is not the norm in the USA.

Ps. I am on a waiting list to rent panels from my electric company in their solar fields, this is for fun and not going to knock down my bill by a lot but my bill is so cheap I could care less other then the fun of saving something, however there is a long wait list, so long that the Electric CO-OP is considering building more fields.

 

[thastinger]

Ok, I would like/love to have this site critiqued. I am seeing more and more of these ads directed to me on social media.
Im not actively looking for solar, unless it was going to be fully paid by the taxpayers and I always felt the solar sales industry was the prime benefactor of taxpayer rebates, now it seems at least at face value that the actual purchasers of solar will benefit from the tax rebates instead of the sales industry?

So for those of you, including @JeffKeryk does this sound legit?
Seems like we are moving in the right direction.

Project Solar | FSA

Project Solar cuts out the sales person and saves you thousands. Whether you opt for DIY or full service, we hold your hand through the whole process. Get solar for $1.50 a watt.

projectsolar.com

You can save a lot more than that as the majority of the cost of a PV system is the panels themselves. You can find take off panels, in good condition for pennies on the dollar. I bought a pallet of 10 230W used panels to use in my off-grid building system, I think I paid 600 bucks with terminal freight. I had to go pick them up but they all worked, all in perfect shape. Used panels are literally everywhere now, nice ones too, for pennies on the dollar.

30ct. CANADIAN 250 WATT SOLAR PANELS...FREE SHIPPING TO LOWER 48!!! | eBay

These 250 Watt Canadian Used Solar Panels feature an efficient polycrystalline module with 37.2 volts to provide optimal power output.

www.ebay.com

 

[alarmguy]

...

This piecemeal approach very often ends up in frustration and finger pointing and in the end , costs more than just going with a known local entity. I do not wish that for you.

Best Sir!

It's not piecemeal, it's dealing with the company that is going to set it all up and install it. Soup to nuts

 

[JeffKeryk]

@alarmguy here's my thoughts based on my experience.
It is impossible for me to speak to your deal (or vendor) because your regional energy costs are far different than mine.
My solar project is almost 6 years old; things have changed.

I suggest you do and consider the following, which is what I did:

• Talk to neighbors who have installed solar; get their thoughts
• Get some bids and make sure you are buying latest technology
• Collect a year's electricity bills to get a base line
• Determine a break even point guesstimate.
• Company viability is more important than price
• Do not use multiple vendors; you want "one neck to choke" if problems arise
• Unless the numbers are compelling, and even then, take your time before pulling the trigger. I invested 5 years.
• See if you need a new roof and if you can roll that into the tax credit benefit; I did.

I tend to doubt the benefit given your low energy costs. In my case, PG&E prices continue to rise; my numbers were conservative making the actual results better than expected.
You tend to be skeptical towards sales pitches, Internet information, etc. Use that as leverage in your decision making.
I can tell you this, which again is very region based: I love my solar. Sometimes you get lucky.

Good luck. Please post your numbers.

 

[UncleDave]

Eager to see how it goes for you and hope you share with us.

Is it rocket science - not at all.
You dont even need a compass - your roof is what it is and you arent changing that.
You may have to answer the question of whats better for you a Southerly orientation or Westerly orientation.

It is difficult to determine what you a given set of gear will actually deliver once installed on a specific roof.
10KW of face rating could yield 8 at peak or 6 depending on orientation, inclination and or any blockages..

Anyone can buy panels and inverters and mounts off the web.

From the site.
They offer two paths- note they even talk about how many DIY deals they've done.

Sure, Using them you avoid a sales guy. They insinuate the sales guy was taking a big cut, in some cases they do, others none at all.

Unless you are in their area and they do the work - you add a middleman not eliminate one, by them working with an installer in your area.

 

[UncleDave]

It's not piecemeal, it's dealing with the company that is going to set it all up and install it. Soup to nuts

IF they do it all it's not.

If they use a remote installer - which they clearly state they do "our installers arent direct employees" , it becomes piecemeal.

So it may not be piecemeal for you or someone in their local area, but for anyone outside of their local area, they bring another company into it - buy the HW from one guy- another guy permits and installs.

 

[alarmguy]

IF they do it all it's not.

If they use a remote installer - which they clearly state they do "our installers arent direct employees" , it becomes piecemeal.

So it may not be piecemeal for you or someone in their local area, but for anyobnne outside of their local area they bring another company into it - buy the HW from one guy- another guy permits and installs.

Ok, I understand where you’re coming from. In this area of the East Coast I’m certain the vast majority of solar system sales are done by third-party companies, companies that go through communities selling both security systems and solar systems and/or one or the other.
Previously before streaming became so popular satellite dish TV was sold by third-party providers, same as solar and alarm companies called dealers.
So this is what I was expecting.

I get it over there. I guess you deal directly with solar companies or maybe better said the majority for you over there is directly with the solar company itself.

We sometimes forget, me included, this is a vast country from coast to coast

 

[UncleDave]

Ok, I understand where you’re coming from. In this area of the East Coast I’m certain the vast majority of solar system sales are done by third-party companies, companies that go through communities selling both security systems and solar systems.
So this is what I was expecting.

I get it over there. I guess you deal directly with solar companies.

I wouldn't buy solar or anything that way myself so I agree with your approach of eliminating "that" guy.

I worked directly with the solar company. They had done about half a dozen of our employees systems and I had a a good base of info to work from.

 

[UncleDave]

Ok, I understand where you’re coming from. In this area of the East Coast I’m certain the vast majority of solar system sales are done by third-party companies, companies that go through communities selling both security systems and solar systems and/or one or the other.
Previously before streaming became so popular satellite dish TV was sold by third-party providers, same as solar and alarm companies called dealers.
So this is what I was expecting.

I get it over there. I guess you deal directly with solar companies or maybe better said the majority for you over there is directly with the solar company itself.

We sometimes forget, me included, this is a vast country from coast to coast

I had to dig through the site to get their actual location and assuming their contact is a Northern Alabama based (259 Area code) business I'd guessed they might not cover North Carolina. Most guys get licensed in a given state, but they may be licensed to cover NC.

 

[andrew_j]

I am wondering how solar companies are going to peddle it when our regular supplier is cutting hour rates back by 59%.

All their ROI calcs on rate of last year are null and void till next energy crunch happens.

 

[thescreensavers]

I used project solar. Overall everything once it was happening was smooth but it took a bit longer than I expected. The Project Solar rep I worked with was very over worked and frequently missed things, I doubt they still work there anymore.

One pro of project solar is that if the solar company that did the install goes out of business I can still at least fall back on project solar for support.

The installation company they had for my area was really good, no complaints. System has been working flawlessly since install.

Once I had a year of service I calculated my savings to be $298 vs just FPL alone. So I am in the Green

 

[JeffKeryk]

I am wondering how solar companies are going to peddle it when our regular supplier is cutting hour rates back by 59%.

All their ROI calcs on rate of last year are null and void till next energy crunch happens.

I would start by talking to Sunrun via Costco; I believe they are nationwide. They were very straight with me; in fact they advised me, after several rounds of talk, that Infinity Energy's quote was excellent. They couldn't touch it with the materials used.

Did I mention I love my solar?

 

[alarmguy]

I used project solar. Overall everything once it was happening was smooth but it took a bit longer than I expected. The Project Solar rep I worked with was very over worked and frequently missed things, I doubt they still work there anymore.

One pro of project solar is that if the solar company that did the install goes out of business I can still at least fall back on project solar for support.

The installation company they had for my area was really good, no complaints. System has been working flawlessly since install.

Once I had a year of service I calculated my savings to be $298 vs just FPL alone. So I am in the Green

Wow, great to hear feedback. Glad to hear it went ok. Just the fact that you’re happy and installation was really good is a major positive. A delay in getting started and the right equipment can happen any place, but that wouldn’t matter to me as long as the outcome is good to better than expected.

 

[OVERKILL]

Once I had a year of service I calculated my savings to be $298 vs just FPL alone. So I am in the Green

How many years is yours going to take to break even on the money invested?