OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I'm posting these for slammds15:
Sorry for the picture quality, I took them with my Blackberry.
Sorry for the picture quality, I took them with my Blackberry.
Boundry lubrication failure? Cummins ISX camshaft
- Thread starter OVERKILL
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Anything about the circumstances? What kind of oil, what ambient temps?
Charlie
Charlie
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Nope, this engine was run on Esso XD-3 15w40 AFAIK.
This is a Cummins ISX engine; 15L I-6, not a Ford PSD.
This is a Cummins ISX engine; 15L I-6, not a Ford PSD.
My bad...
It could never be Mobil 1 in the crankcase!
(just kidding with you)
Take care, Bill
It could never be Mobil 1 in the crankcase!
Take care, Bill
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Anything about the circumstances? What kind of oil, what ambient temps?
Charlie
Truck is an International Lonestar.
I don't know much else regarding the details, I'm sure slammds15 will fill us in when he gets online. He's up at his MIL's right now.
Anything about the circumstances? What kind of oil, what ambient temps?
Charlie
Truck is an International Lonestar.
I don't know much else regarding the details, I'm sure slammds15 will fill us in when he gets online. He's up at his MIL's right now.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
It could never be Mobil 1 in the crankcase!
Well Esso is a division of Mobil, so....
This failure was surprising. Unfortunately, as far as I know, the mileage on the oil is unknown, and this engine was rebuilt about 6 months ago due to an air induction leak which cooked the turbo and all the cylinders. Cams were fine then.....
If you look at the rockers, you will notice that one is significantly longer than the other. That is, it is higher ratio than its sibling. Every lobe that failed was one with the long, high ratio rocker, and every long, high-ratio rocker, had pitted/worn rollers on them. That's why I am thinking boundary lubrication failure.
It could never be Mobil 1 in the crankcase!
Well Esso is a division of Mobil, so....
This failure was surprising. Unfortunately, as far as I know, the mileage on the oil is unknown, and this engine was rebuilt about 6 months ago due to an air induction leak which cooked the turbo and all the cylinders. Cams were fine then.....
If you look at the rockers, you will notice that one is significantly longer than the other. That is, it is higher ratio than its sibling. Every lobe that failed was one with the long, high ratio rocker, and every long, high-ratio rocker, had pitted/worn rollers on them. That's why I am thinking boundary lubrication failure.
will they have to pull the oil pump and pick up screen to clean it?
What horsepower rating is the engine? We have 3 trucks with ISX 565 HP engines and they run really hot, oil temps are 250 degrees all day. I always wondered if the high oil temps would have any effect on how the oil protects.
So much for the "roller cams don't need ZDDP" thinking. Do the rollers still roll or did one sieze up and slide instead?
Hi,
OVERK1LL - More information is needed and, sadly, diagnosis from afar is at best questionable
IMHO I do not think that this is a lubricant related failure and such events will not be picked up via a "simple" UOA. More data on the lubricant may be helpful however
However:
a) Chris raised the issue of seized roller(s) - were they?
b) What miles/hours on the engine?
c) Why was the engine torn down (circumstance, reason, diagnostic indicators etc)?
d) Were all lobes damaged (some appear in good order)?
e) What else was found wrong?
f) Any recent UOAs?
g) and etc etc, etc
OVERK1LL - More information is needed and, sadly, diagnosis from afar is at best questionable
IMHO I do not think that this is a lubricant related failure and such events will not be picked up via a "simple" UOA. More data on the lubricant may be helpful however
However:
a) Chris raised the issue of seized roller(s) - were they?
b) What miles/hours on the engine?
c) Why was the engine torn down (circumstance, reason, diagnostic indicators etc)?
d) Were all lobes damaged (some appear in good order)?
e) What else was found wrong?
f) Any recent UOAs?
g) and etc etc, etc
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Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
What horsepower rating is the engine? We have 3 trucks with ISX 565 HP engines and they run really hot, oil temps are 250 degrees all day. I always wondered if the high oil temps would have any effect on how the oil protects.
250 F.!!!!! My goodness; is that related to the EGR system? How come the oil cooler doesn't lower it to coolant temps? Have you measured the temp. of the oil pan with an IR thermometer? If that's on a gauge, where is the sender?
That's a good argument for using synthetic oil on that type of motor. IMHO.
Charlie
What horsepower rating is the engine? We have 3 trucks with ISX 565 HP engines and they run really hot, oil temps are 250 degrees all day. I always wondered if the high oil temps would have any effect on how the oil protects.
250 F.!!!!! My goodness; is that related to the EGR system? How come the oil cooler doesn't lower it to coolant temps? Have you measured the temp. of the oil pan with an IR thermometer? If that's on a gauge, where is the sender?
That's a good argument for using synthetic oil on that type of motor. IMHO.
Charlie
Im guessing it is related to the EGR system. I am getting the temp readings from the gauge in the dash, not sure where the sensors are though. The boss uses Castrol Hypurion synthetic blend 15w40 oil in all the trucks.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
OVERK1LL - More information is needed and, sadly, diagnosis from afar is at best questionable
IMHO I do not think that this is a lubricant related failure and such events will not be picked up via a "simple" UOA. More data on the lubricant may be helpful however
Doug, we will need to wait for Jon (slammds15) to really answer these questions. He performed the tear-down, I just popped by to take pics
I will however, answer your questions the best I can in the interim:
Quote:
a) Chris raised the issue of seized roller(s) - were they?
When I went to roll them, the two or three I rolled "stuck" a few times rolling them around. Jon stated they had been cleaned with brake-clean and he figured that it was causing that.... I don't know.
Quote:
b) What miles/hours on the engine?
Well, it is less than a year old. No idea of hours or miles.
Quote:
c) Why was the engine torn down (circumstance, reason, diagnostic indicators etc)?
Not sure.
Quote:
d) Were all lobes damaged (some appear in good order)?
ONLY the lobes with the long rockers were damaged. The ones with the short rockers were not. And only one lobe on the injector cam showed any real damage. The one I posted a picture of.
Quote:
e) What else was found wrong?
f) Any recent UOAs?
g) and etc etc, etc
Jon will have to answer these.
Hi,
OVERK1LL - More information is needed and, sadly, diagnosis from afar is at best questionable
IMHO I do not think that this is a lubricant related failure and such events will not be picked up via a "simple" UOA. More data on the lubricant may be helpful however
Doug, we will need to wait for Jon (slammds15) to really answer these questions. He performed the tear-down, I just popped by to take pics
I will however, answer your questions the best I can in the interim:
Quote:
a) Chris raised the issue of seized roller(s) - were they?
When I went to roll them, the two or three I rolled "stuck" a few times rolling them around. Jon stated they had been cleaned with brake-clean and he figured that it was causing that.... I don't know.
Quote:
b) What miles/hours on the engine?
Well, it is less than a year old. No idea of hours or miles.
Quote:
c) Why was the engine torn down (circumstance, reason, diagnostic indicators etc)?
Not sure.
Quote:
d) Were all lobes damaged (some appear in good order)?
ONLY the lobes with the long rockers were damaged. The ones with the short rockers were not. And only one lobe on the injector cam showed any real damage. The one I posted a picture of.
Quote:
e) What else was found wrong?
f) Any recent UOAs?
g) and etc etc, etc
Jon will have to answer these.
Since you said that the rollers were stuck then maybe the bearings were not hardened correctly? Even cleaned with brakcleaner they should still roll.
They use needle bearings so they don't need much of a lube.
So far from what I see with no testing done to the parts I'm guessing that it's defective parts and not a lube failure.
But I'm only guessing.
They use needle bearings so they don't need much of a lube.
So far from what I see with no testing done to the parts I'm guessing that it's defective parts and not a lube failure.
But I'm only guessing.
Bad cam? With the other lobes seem to be [ok]= I wonder if the problem is from improper hardening of the cam ? Look how fast the wear happened.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Nope, this engine was run on Esso XD-3 15w40 AFAIK.
This is a Cummins ISX engine; 15L I-6, not a Ford PSD.
Nobody fixes a Powerstroke, when it breaks down they trade it in!!!
Nope, this engine was run on Esso XD-3 15w40 AFAIK.
This is a Cummins ISX engine; 15L I-6, not a Ford PSD.
Nobody fixes a Powerstroke, when it breaks down they trade it in!!!
K well it's NOT A POWERSTROKE!!!!!!!!
It's a Cummins ISX CM871. The history on the engine goes as follows. At 24,000 kms I and another Cummins fellow rebuilt it. The air intake pipes had fallen off and it had ingested copious amounts of dust. This is now a recall for the Lonestar. There was no cross hatching left in the bores, there was a ridge of 1/16 at the top of the cylender. The head, turbo, piston's and liners, rod and main bearing's were replaced. There was no evidence of scoring on the injector or the valve cam. They were reused as cummins advised. The pipes were urethaned on as per recomendation of international.
The driver came in complaining of excesive engine noise. upon hearing it the valve cover was removed and as you can tell it was rather obvious what the issue was. The engine has 52,000km on it now in total. The rollers did not seize on the rockers. There was only one intake rocker with a flat spot on it the rest were pitted badly. The exhaust rockers did have major scoring but not as prevalent as the intake. There was only one injector rocker with scoring. The injector cam on #6cyl had bad scoring. Intake and exhaust lobes on the valve cam were eaten, engine brake lobes were ok. Both cams were replaced, all the intake and exhaust rockers were replaced, one injector rocker was replaced. Engine brake rockers were reused. No UOA was done as recomended by me, politics played a roll in that one. The customer owns around 60 trucks purchased from us so we are not about to screw him out of warranty. The oil was very dirty for an ISX btw. Acc drives gears showed no wear n'or did the mains.
We have not serviced this engine since it left in the spring after the rebuild. They are doing their own maintenace. It came in with filthy oil and a Luberfiner lfp 9000 on it.
It's a Cummins ISX CM871. The history on the engine goes as follows. At 24,000 kms I and another Cummins fellow rebuilt it. The air intake pipes had fallen off and it had ingested copious amounts of dust. This is now a recall for the Lonestar. There was no cross hatching left in the bores, there was a ridge of 1/16 at the top of the cylender. The head, turbo, piston's and liners, rod and main bearing's were replaced. There was no evidence of scoring on the injector or the valve cam. They were reused as cummins advised. The pipes were urethaned on as per recomendation of international.
The driver came in complaining of excesive engine noise. upon hearing it the valve cover was removed and as you can tell it was rather obvious what the issue was. The engine has 52,000km on it now in total. The rollers did not seize on the rockers. There was only one intake rocker with a flat spot on it the rest were pitted badly. The exhaust rockers did have major scoring but not as prevalent as the intake. There was only one injector rocker with scoring. The injector cam on #6cyl had bad scoring. Intake and exhaust lobes on the valve cam were eaten, engine brake lobes were ok. Both cams were replaced, all the intake and exhaust rockers were replaced, one injector rocker was replaced. Engine brake rockers were reused. No UOA was done as recomended by me, politics played a roll in that one. The customer owns around 60 trucks purchased from us so we are not about to screw him out of warranty. The oil was very dirty for an ISX btw. Acc drives gears showed no wear n'or did the mains.
We have not serviced this engine since it left in the spring after the rebuild. They are doing their own maintenace. It came in with filthy oil and a Luberfiner lfp 9000 on it.
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Is it possible the hardening on the lobes was worn enough to not really show wear at rebuild ? I have seen a couple engines in need of rebuild from being sanded down by dirt entering through a faulty intake parts. The oil was nasty? From my experience the air filter is the most important filter. Not too many people get to see a wasted engine from an intake leak. Could the roller have failed first,but then the cam seems worse? Just guessing.
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