BMW 0W-20

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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
OK, to make it short: - Drive BMW like BMW should be driven: 0W40, 0W30, any LL-01 . 2. Drive BMW like Lexus, well, do whatever factory says.
What if you drive a Lexus like a BMW? What exactly is Driving something like a BMW anyway? Extra legal speed happen quickly with these cars, Are we talking about simple reckless driving, or just being an aggressive [censored] in a Beamer? I notice while in the Beamer people are aggressive [censored] to me so it must be a cultural thing and they cut me off and try to race because of previous experiences with people driving like they are in a BMW? Maybe I need to weave in and out of traffic more so that my BMW feels useful. Do I need to buy accessories like leather driving gloves from BMW to reach this level of driving?
 
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Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
[quote=edyvw]
Quote:
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
OK, to make it short: - Drive BMW like BMW should be driven: 0W40, 0W30, any LL-01 . 2. Drive BMW like Lexus, well, do whatever factory says.
Quote:
What if you drive a Lexus like a BMW? What exactly is Driving something like a BMW anyway? Extra legal speed happen quickly with these cars, Are we talking about simple reckless driving, or just being an aggressive [censored] in a Beamer? I notice while in the Beamer people are aggressive [censored] to me so it must be a cultural thing and they cut me off and try to race because of previous experiences with people driving like they are in a BMW? Maybe I need to weave in and out of traffic more so that my BMW feels useful. Do I need to buy accessories like leather driving gloves from BMW to reach this level of driving?
I gave you my opinion man. As for BMW a..... your post sounds like written by one. As for reckless driving, we can debate on that. 120mph for me is not reckless driving, driving 10 below speed limit in left lane creating traffic jam, where chance of accident is increasing drastically is for me at least reckless driving. These engines are created for hard driving or in the U.S. terms "reckless" driving. BMW moved to 0W20 in SOME applications because several engines had issues with bedding in process on NA market (N63) because people are using them as grocery getters, making sure they are not "reckless" but still wanted twin turbo V8 (mostly for neighbors). By the way, N20 is NOT a new engine.[/quote]
 
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Exactly Edyvw. A performance car is meant to be driven with some umph. Aka... gas pedal usage. Only thing I would change in your statement is that instead of a Lexus I would say a fully loaded Toyota Avalon. It's a favorite sedan amongst the local retirement community.
 
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Originally Posted By: bbhero
Exactly Edyvw. A performance car is meant to be driven with some umph. Aka... gas pedal usage. Only thing I would change in your statement is that instead of a Lexus I would say a fully loaded Toyota Avalon. It's a favorite sedan amongst the local retirement community.
When I see Avalon in my rearview mirror I hit the gas pedal to lower a chance of them slamming into me in case I have to stop suddenly.
 
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Ha ha!! Yeah I get concerned going through certain areas of town around here. Add tourists, foreign college kids, young people on the phones and you have a wonderful concoction of drivers here. Ohh and you being called a newbie... that's hilarious. And FAR, very far from being accurate.
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified. This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed. And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature. Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
A common newby mistake. A 0W-20 and 0W-40 may be both 0W oils but a 0W-20 is much lighter than a 0W-40 at all typical start up temp's and the lightest 0W-20s will always have lower CCS and MRV spec's than the lightest 0W-40s. There is no difference in the European and NA oil spec's. You can still use the cheaper LL-01 5W-30 and 0W-40 grades in the N20 four cyl engines if you want it just doesn't make any lubrication sense to do so.
What is that HUGE difference in CCS and MRV between 0W40 and 0W20? There is substantial difference between ALL 0W20 and ALL 0W40? Also, considering composition of Castrol 0W40 for example, it will out do on cold start ANY 0W20 that does not have Esters in it, for the simple fact that esters are polar (and Catsrol 0W40 has substantial amount of esters). So, it is not only 0W20 or 0W40 or 0W30, it is much more complex then that. There is actually difference in pour point between old M1 0W40 and Castrol 0W40, a difference in pour point of 14 degrees C. There is similar difference in CCS and MRV. What I want to say is that you might put 0W20 in, but due to composition both CCS and MRV might be on the side of 0W40.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade.
Yes oil pumps are PD pumps but the rate of oil flow through an engine is entirely related to it's viscosity. The higher oil back pressure that heavier oil grades generate is proof that less oil is flowing below the PRV setting.
You can't have the constant volume of a PD pump and reduced flow with increasing viscosity. Thermodynamics requires conservation of mass. In the real world, the higher oil pressure observed with more viscous oils is proof that the same volume of oil is being moved against the resistance of the engine. Ed
The oil pump pressurizes the system. Even below the PRV setting you will have greater measured flow with lighter oil that generates less back-pressure than heavier oil that generates higher OP. Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
[quote=edyvw]
Quote:
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
OK, to make it short: - Drive BMW like BMW should be driven: 0W40, 0W30, any LL-01 . 2. Drive BMW like Lexus, well, do whatever factory says.
Quote:
What if you drive a Lexus like a BMW? What exactly is Driving something like a BMW anyway? Extra legal speed happen quickly with these cars, Are we talking about simple reckless driving, or just being an aggressive [censored] in a Beamer? I notice while in the Beamer people are aggressive [censored] to me so it must be a cultural thing and they cut me off and try to race because of previous experiences with people driving like they are in a BMW? Maybe I need to weave in and out of traffic more so that my BMW feels useful. Do I need to buy accessories like leather driving gloves from BMW to reach this level of driving?
I gave you my opinion man. As for BMW a..... your post sounds like written by one. As for reckless driving, we can debate on that. 120mph for me is not reckless driving, driving 10 below speed limit in left lane creating traffic jam, where chance of accident is increasing drastically is for me at least reckless driving. These engines are created for hard driving or in the U.S. terms "reckless" driving. BMW moved to 0W20 in SOME applications because several engines had issues with bedding in process on NA market (N63) because people are using them as grocery getters, making sure they are not "reckless" but still wanted twin turbo V8 (mostly for neighbors). By the way, N20 is NOT a new engine.
Fun and assumption. I enjoy blasting up passes at 85 and 90 mph I have Admittadly hit triple digits to pass on some desert two lanes but you and I know that 120 will get you hauled off to be booked and if you can't clear road ahead for the next minute of driving, it is risky. My sig is old, I never updated since the car was bought, I have been on the board for a bit of time and several vehicles. What I drive is not how I identify myself. I don't assume I am in Germany or that Germany is that great to drive in anymore. I am in the US and it's getting crowded even in Colorado. [/quote]
 
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Quote:
The oil pump pressurizes the system. Even below the PRV setting you will have greater measured flow with lighter oil that generates less back-pressure than heavier oil that generates higher OP. Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
It will lower the temperature IF and ONLY IF both oils have same chemistry composition. 0W40, 5W40 etc. with right composition might transfer heat faster then HC 0W20 oil. It is all about what is cooked in the kitchen. If it was that simple Lamborgihini, Ferrari etc. would also use 0W20, but they do not. For example, in BMW 335i Redline 5W30 run always cooler then BMW 5W30 although Redline 5W30 has HTHS equal to Catsrol 0W40 and higher then many 0/5W40 oils. Of course, go hammer car with 0W20 and one with 0W40 and let's see where are iron numbers in UOA.
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified. This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed. And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature. Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
A common newby mistake. A 0W-20 and 0W-40 may be both 0W oils but a 0W-20 is much lighter than a 0W-40 at all typical start up temp's and the lightest 0W-20s will always have lower CCS and MRV spec's than the lightest 0W-40s. There is no difference in the European and NA oil spec's. You can still use the cheaper LL-01 5W-30 and 0W-40 grades in the N20 four cyl engines if you want it just doesn't make any lubrication sense to do so.
What is that HUGE difference in CCS and MRV between 0W40 and 0W20? There is substantial difference between ALL 0W20 and ALL 0W40? Also, considering composition of Castrol 0W40 for example, it will out do on cold start ANY 0W20 that does not have Esters in it, for the simple fact that esters are polar (and Catsrol 0W40 has substantial amount of esters). So, it is not only 0W20 or 0W40 or 0W30, it is much more complex then that. There is actually difference in pour point between old M1 0W40 and Castrol 0W40, a difference in pour point of 14 degrees C. There is similar difference in CCS and MRV. What I want to say is that you might put 0W20 in, but due to composition both CCS and MRV might be on the side of 0W40.
I see you're a Castrol fan. So where are you getting the MRV and CCS figures you're referring to as I've never seen then published. I like the polar nature of ester chemistry as much as the next guy but it doesn't play a role in hydrodynamic lubrication. PP spec's have no practical value and any 0W-20 will be way lighter at all typical start-up temp's vs Castrol 0W-40. And as far as 0W-40s go I'd prefer M1 FS 0W-40 which is 20% lighter at even a modestly cold 32F due largely to it's considerably higher VI.
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
The oil pump pressurizes the system. Even below the PRV setting you will have greater measured flow with lighter oil that generates less back-pressure than heavier oil that generates higher OP. Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
It will lower the temperature IF and ONLY IF both oils have same chemistry composition. 0W40, 5W40 etc. with right composition might transfer heat faster then HC 0W20 oil. It is all about what is cooked in the kitchen. If it was that simple Lamborgihini, Ferrari etc. would also use 0W20, but they do not. For example, in BMW 335i Redline 5W30 run always cooler then BMW 5W30 although Redline 5W30 has HTHS equal to Catsrol 0W40 and higher then many 0/5W40 oils. Of course, go hammer car with 0W20 and one with 0W40 and let's see where are iron numbers in UOA.
You can run a 0W-20 in any engine including Lambo's (as one member has) and Ferrari's if you can maintain oil pressure (oil temp's stay low) say during winter use. Below are a couple of good UOA's running 0W-20s in my track car that's spec'd 5W-50: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4042308/1 I like RL products and have used them but I have not noticed any difference in oil temp's with RL 5W-30 vs M1 0W-40 for example. And with another example, in an M3, slightly lower oil temp's were generated on track with Liqui Moly 10W-60 vs RL 5W-50. Why? The more shear stable RL is actually heavier in service.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
No, and again no. You don't get it. The lighter oils have lower viscous shear, and generate less heat in the bearings areas (bearings and piston skirts)...this wastes less power and generates less heat within the oil...and thus there is less temperature rise. Your more flow is an artifact of higher bearing side leakage (less piston squirter flow BTW...I suppose that saves some oil heat) e.g. 37.4 Watts GENERATED in the bearing versus 73.4 Watts GENERATED in the 20W50 case. That's the heat GENERATED in the bearing, not carried away from the bearing as is commonly misbelieved. 37.4W, over 179ml/min, verus 73.4 watts over 152ml/min is the difference in oil temperature, NOT more flow "carrying away" heat better. edit...clearly the primary role of the lubricant is to keep the parts separated (MOFT - Minimum oil film thickness), so you DO NOT want to be compromising on your needs just to [censored] the relief valve on the pump.
 
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Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
What if you drive a Lexus like a BMW? What exactly is Driving something like a BMW anyway? Extra legal speed happen quickly with these cars, Are we talking about simple reckless driving, or just being an aggressive [censored] in a Beamer? I notice while in the Beamer people are aggressive [censored] to me so it must be a cultural thing and they cut me off and try to race because of previous experiences with people driving like they are in a BMW? Maybe I need to weave in and out of traffic more so that my BMW feels useful. Do I need to buy accessories like leather driving gloves from BMW to reach this level of driving?
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I gave you my opinion man. As for BMW a..... your post sounds like written by one. As for reckless driving, we can debate on that. 120mph for me is not reckless driving, driving 10 below speed limit in left lane creating traffic jam, where chance of accident is increasing drastically is for me at least reckless driving. These engines are created for hard driving or in the U.S. terms "reckless" driving. BMW moved to 0W20 in SOME applications because several engines had issues with bedding in process on NA market (N63) because people are using them as grocery getters, making sure they are not "reckless" but still wanted twin turbo V8 (mostly for neighbors). By the way, N20 is NOT a new engine.
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Fun and assumption. I enjoy blasting up passes at 85 and 90 mph I have Admittedly hit triple digits to pass on some desert two lanes but you and I know that 120 will get you hauled off to be booked and if you can't clear road ahead for the next minute of driving, it is risky. My sig is old, I never updated since the car was bought, I have been on the board for a bit of time and several vehicles. What I drive is not how I identify myself. I don't assume I am in Germany or that Germany is that great to drive in anymore. I am in the US and it's getting crowded even in Colorado.
How often do your engines are at or near redline on US highways ? With 7-8 speed AT most engines are below 3000 RPM at speed up to 85-90 MPH, now if you are on Autobahn at your engines are at redline for extended time your oil temperature can be as high as 130-140C, while it is no more than 100-110C even at 80-90 MPH in Death Valley. xW40 at 130-140C is way thicker than xW20 at 100-110C. That is why I use xW20 in my 2000 E430.
 
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We have not even discussed some of the low rpm high torque characteristics that these engines are designed for and the rod and main bearing load that ( driving it like a Lexus) can cause.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
No, and again no. You don't get it. The lighter oils have lower viscous shear, and generate less heat in the bearings areas (bearings and piston skirts)...this wastes less power and generates less heat within the oil...and thus there is less temperature rise. Your more flow is an artifact of higher bearing side leakage (less piston squirter flow BTW...I suppose that saves some oil heat) e.g. 37.4 Watts GENERATED in the bearing versus 73.4 Watts GENERATED in the 20W50 case. That's the heat GENERATED in the bearing, not carried away from the bearing as is commonly misbelieved. 37.4W, over 179ml/min, verus 73.4 watts over 152ml/min is the difference in oil temperature, NOT more flow "carrying away" heat better. edit...clearly the primary role of the lubricant is to keep the parts separated (MOFT - Minimum oil film thickness), so you DO NOT want to be compromising on your needs just to [censored] the relief valve on the pump.
I am not wrong. I made no reference to how heat is generated in engine just the bottom line that heavier oil results in higher bulk oil temp's than lighter oil when an engine is being worked hard which is a FACT. To add further, if the oil'S viscosity is too high, excessively high oil temp's can result. Another FACT. It's worth noting than the only oil grade recommended by any auto company for the NA market in your captioned chart is the 0W-20 grade.
 
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Sorry, when you said
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
I though that you said that greater oil flow was the reason that you had lower oil temperatures. My bad... I'm still confused on your position...could you word it a little differently to explain what you ACTUALLY mean as opposed to what you wrote ? Clarity is important
 
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I see you're a Castrol fan. So where are you getting the MRV and CCS figures you're referring to as I've never seen then published. I like the polar nature of ester chemistry as much as the next guy but it doesn't play a role in hydrodynamic lubrication. PP spec's have no practical value and any 0W-20 will be way lighter at all typical start-up temp's vs Castrol 0W-40. And as far as 0W-40s go I'd prefer M1 FS 0W-40 which is 20% lighter at even a modestly cold 32F due largely to it's considerably higher VI.
Since you brought up CCS and MRV I am asking you to back that up, and you cannot. So as usual you are just assuming. I am fan of certain Castrol's, like 0W30/40 which I think are best oils for Euro gassers. On other hand, I have stocked up M1 5W30 ESP for my BMW diesel since I think it is best Low-SAPS oil for modern diesels. On other hand, I think Castrol 5W40 that VW uses in its dealerships is probably one of the lowest quality oil's for Euro gassers available in the market. If you read my posts you would know how critical I am of Catsrol, but you have tendency not to read anyone's posts carefully anyway. As for FS, previous version was very bad in cold weather (for 0W40 oil to be precise), to the point where 5W40's in cold had better start (less rattle noise) then 0W40 M1, however, I am more concern with low HTHS of new FS, and the fact that currently oil CANNOT meet LL-01. All that beating around the bush why M1 does not have LL-01, let's just say what it is: current GTL base cannot meet it. Also, previous M1 had poor TBN retention, so they hiked up TBN of new FS. Does that mean M1 expect same issues? As for 0W20 in Lambo and Ferrari, yes, you can run 0W16, you just dump old oil put new and crank up the car. However, engines should last longer then 100K and should not be garaged.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
and have stupid faces
shrug Why some find it so important to tell others what's interesting or not has always puzzled me. Weird obsession I guess.
I've come to find many BMW drivers are like foodies...they think they know more than everyone else and we're all supposed to feel inferior when they start talking about mouth feel. Say what you will about Lexus...at least you know they will start in the morning.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Greater oil flow is the reason you will have lower oil temp's when you are hammering an engine on track with a lighter oil than a heavier oil.
No, and again no. You don't get it. The lighter oils have lower viscous shear, and generate less heat in the bearings areas (bearings and piston skirts)...this wastes less power and generates less heat within the oil...and thus there is less temperature rise. Your more flow is an artifact of higher bearing side leakage (less piston squirter flow BTW...I suppose that saves some oil heat) e.g. 37.4 Watts GENERATED in the bearing versus 73.4 Watts GENERATED in the 20W50 case. That's the heat GENERATED in the bearing, not carried away from the bearing as is commonly misbelieved. 37.4W, over 179ml/min, verus 73.4 watts over 152ml/min is the difference in oil temperature, NOT more flow "carrying away" heat better. edit...clearly the primary role of the lubricant is to keep the parts separated (MOFT - Minimum oil film thickness), so you DO NOT want to be compromising on your needs just to [censored] the relief valve on the pump.
I am not wrong. I made no reference to how heat is generated in engine just the bottom line that heavier oil results in higher bulk oil temp's than lighter oil when an engine is being worked hard which is a FACT. To add further, if the oil'S viscosity is too high, excessively high oil temp's can result. Another FACT. It's worth noting than the only oil grade recommended by any auto company for the NA market in your captioned chart is the 0W-20 grade.
You are right there, but how does that make it more important then wear protection that bit thicker roil provides?
 
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Originally Posted By: Doublehaul
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
and have stupid faces
shrug Why some find it so important to tell others what's interesting or not has always puzzled me. Weird obsession I guess.
I've come to find many BMW drivers are like foodies...they think they know more than everyone else and we're all supposed to feel inferior when they start talking about mouth feel. Say what you will about Lexus...at least you know they will start in the morning.
You mean Toyota?
 
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