What did you replace it with?
Any Members Running Monograde At The Moment?
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Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
20w-20 means it meets the cold pumping specs for 20w and is an SAE 20 at operating temp. A mono SAE 20 might be a 30w rated when it's cold. Remember the w is not for weight. It's for winter.
So a SAE 30 wt oil is a SAE 40 wt when cold? Why is it not called a 30w-30 if that is the case?
that was just an example. I think the top w number is a 25w
The point is that a 10w-30 is not SAE 10 when its cold and SAE 30 when it is hot. 10w refers to the oils pumpability at 0F I think. All oils thin as they warm up.
That 20w-20 is going to be thicker than SAE 20 when cold and it will thin to SAE 20 as it warms up to 100C
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
20w-20 means it meets the cold pumping specs for 20w and is an SAE 20 at operating temp. A mono SAE 20 might be a 30w rated when it's cold. Remember the w is not for weight. It's for winter.
So a SAE 30 wt oil is a SAE 40 wt when cold? Why is it not called a 30w-30 if that is the case?
that was just an example. I think the top w number is a 25w
The point is that a 10w-30 is not SAE 10 when its cold and SAE 30 when it is hot. 10w refers to the oils pumpability at 0F I think. All oils thin as they warm up.
That 20w-20 is going to be thicker than SAE 20 when cold and it will thin to SAE 20 as it warms up to 100C
Originally Posted By: tony1679
Yuck. No way. Even my '15 Hustler Raptor FR691V (that Kawi practically demands you use SAE-40 in) receives more respect than that. From the owner's manual: "NOTE: Using multi grade oils will increase oil consumption." WILL, not may. And a phone call to them confirmed they know nothing. Among many other false "facts", two stood out. The manual states SL or older only. They cringed when I mentioned SM or SN. And I thought they were going to reach through the phone when I mentioned synthetic. NO was a massive understatement.
Kawasaki... Great engine. Poor oil knowledge.
I bet they'd have a stroke if I told them I've never leaked or burned a drop and I've been using VSP SN 5W-30 ever since draining the factory fill @ 8 hours.
I swear it runs better than the day I bought it.
Synthetic multi-grade ftw.
Agree to the poor oil knowledge. Yet there own oil is a synthetic blend. What they don't even know is that by approving SL and older, they are unknowingly approving the newest API rating, since its all backwards compatible. It also seems that there are a bunch of people stuck in the old days of thinking that you need to use a monogramed for there OPEs. I also have a Kawasaki and is using M1EP 5w30. But I scored a good deal on M1TDT 5w40 at Wal-Mart this year and going to use that instead. I also had the same experience with Hydro-Gear when I called then and it seemed the guy at the other end of phone by cranky for mentioning synthetic.
Yuck. No way. Even my '15 Hustler Raptor FR691V (that Kawi practically demands you use SAE-40 in) receives more respect than that. From the owner's manual: "NOTE: Using multi grade oils will increase oil consumption." WILL, not may. And a phone call to them confirmed they know nothing. Among many other false "facts", two stood out. The manual states SL or older only. They cringed when I mentioned SM or SN. And I thought they were going to reach through the phone when I mentioned synthetic. NO was a massive understatement.
Kawasaki... Great engine. Poor oil knowledge.
I bet they'd have a stroke if I told them I've never leaked or burned a drop and I've been using VSP SN 5W-30 ever since draining the factory fill @ 8 hours.
I swear it runs better than the day I bought it.
Synthetic multi-grade ftw.
Agree to the poor oil knowledge. Yet there own oil is a synthetic blend. What they don't even know is that by approving SL and older, they are unknowingly approving the newest API rating, since its all backwards compatible. It also seems that there are a bunch of people stuck in the old days of thinking that you need to use a monogramed for there OPEs. I also have a Kawasaki and is using M1EP 5w30. But I scored a good deal on M1TDT 5w40 at Wal-Mart this year and going to use that instead. I also had the same experience with Hydro-Gear when I called then and it seemed the guy at the other end of phone by cranky for mentioning synthetic.
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
20w-20 means it meets the cold pumping specs for 20w and is an SAE 20 at operating temp. A mono SAE 20 might be a 30w rated when it's cold. Remember the w is not for weight. It's for winter.
So a SAE 30 wt oil is a SAE 40 wt when cold? Why is it not called a 30w-30 if that is the case?
He just didn't word it elegantly, that's all.
Let's try a different approach.
A 20w-20 and a 20w-50 both have to meet the 20w-XX cold cranking requirements. An ordinary SAE 20 or SAE 50 does not. And, incidentally, a 20w-20 can be a monograde if it has no viscosity index improvers.
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
20w-20 means it meets the cold pumping specs for 20w and is an SAE 20 at operating temp. A mono SAE 20 might be a 30w rated when it's cold. Remember the w is not for weight. It's for winter.
So a SAE 30 wt oil is a SAE 40 wt when cold? Why is it not called a 30w-30 if that is the case?
He just didn't word it elegantly, that's all.
A 20w-20 and a 20w-50 both have to meet the 20w-XX cold cranking requirements. An ordinary SAE 20 or SAE 50 does not. And, incidentally, a 20w-20 can be a monograde if it has no viscosity index improvers.
The few SAE 20s left are typically 15W20 or 10W20s depending on their position on the thick/thin end of the 20 scale.
Have a look at Delo 400 SAE 20, how cold will it go?
Have a look at Delo 400 SAE 20, how cold will it go?
Originally Posted By: SR5
I was reading about FM and wetclutches, some were saying it makes the clutch action a little smoother, as the plates don't suddenly grab but have a little give for a moment as the FM is swept off the plate surface. You just don't want too much FM so the plates slide for too long, probably related to power output too. No links, just something I read a few years ago, it made sense to me as I mostly ran PCMO's in my wetclutche bikes also without any issues.
That's interesting, thanks for that info. I figure all oils have some amount of FM, just maybe different types and different quantities that in certain edge cases might cause issues. And having the JASO MA/MA2 certification (or at least the claim to meet it) means they've run and passed the friction tests. Not having the cert just means they didn't bother with it.
I was reading about FM and wetclutches, some were saying it makes the clutch action a little smoother, as the plates don't suddenly grab but have a little give for a moment as the FM is swept off the plate surface. You just don't want too much FM so the plates slide for too long, probably related to power output too. No links, just something I read a few years ago, it made sense to me as I mostly ran PCMO's in my wetclutche bikes also without any issues.
That's interesting, thanks for that info. I figure all oils have some amount of FM, just maybe different types and different quantities that in certain edge cases might cause issues. And having the JASO MA/MA2 certification (or at least the claim to meet it) means they've run and passed the friction tests. Not having the cert just means they didn't bother with it.
Originally Posted By: Red91
What did you replace it with?
I started thinking I wanted to use up some 15w40 delvac taking up shelf space so I went that way.
When that is gone I'll probably go back to sae 30 since I have quite a lot
of the delo gallons left.
What did you replace it with?
I started thinking I wanted to use up some 15w40 delvac taking up shelf space so I went that way.
When that is gone I'll probably go back to sae 30 since I have quite a lot
of the delo gallons left.
We are probably going to start breaking in flat tappet engines with Warren 30wt and a zinc additive. For roller tappet engines we will probably just use the stand alone Warren oil. It's really less about the oil and more about the procedure. As long as you have sufficient zinc you should be in the clear, as long as you apply the procedure correctly.
Agreed.
Really prefer roller whenever affordable, but that isn't always the situation.
I've also found parts inspection to make a difference. I've been pretty fortunate to catch insufficient lifter crown (which will, of course lead to insufficient rotation) more than once. That + a physical check for lifter rotation before fire up has become std procedure for me.
These will never be ran in the winter, and aren't driven every day so I feel there is really no harm in monograde. (I finished up my stash of closeout 59 cent per quart Valvoline SAE 30 racing last year).
Really prefer roller whenever affordable, but that isn't always the situation.
I've also found parts inspection to make a difference. I've been pretty fortunate to catch insufficient lifter crown (which will, of course lead to insufficient rotation) more than once. That + a physical check for lifter rotation before fire up has become std procedure for me.
These will never be ran in the winter, and aren't driven every day so I feel there is really no harm in monograde. (I finished up my stash of closeout 59 cent per quart Valvoline SAE 30 racing last year).
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: Red91
Not necessarily readily available, but I believe you can order Valvoline 20W-20 through Napa. Its a detergent oil, whereas the Kendall I've seen for sale is a non detergent.
Why is it a 20w-20 and not just a 20 wt?
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: blupupher
If I had and engine spec'ed for xw-30 I would, but currently no, I do not.
Your 2002 Ford F150 5.4 with 188,000 would run on 30w and not complain a bit.
I don't want to have to worry about the timing chain tensioners. A xw-30 could contribute to the problem.
Can you explain how the timing chain tensioner will be effected by the 30wt. I run 10w30 in my 4.6 currently. In the past i have run a lot of 0w40 and 5w30. No problems yet almost 20 years later and 180k miles. I do baby the ford though. I have looked into this issue. I backed away from 20wt as the oil pressure could get low at idle and not provide adequate tension ? My 99 ford came with 5w30 from factory. My rpms never go over 3k. So i dont worry about excessive oil pressure. Sure wish i had an oil pressure guage. Startup sounds are healthier with the 30 wt in my opinion as compared to the m1 0w20 ep that i tried.
Originally Posted By: Red91
Not necessarily readily available, but I believe you can order Valvoline 20W-20 through Napa. Its a detergent oil, whereas the Kendall I've seen for sale is a non detergent.
Why is it a 20w-20 and not just a 20 wt?
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: blupupher
If I had and engine spec'ed for xw-30 I would, but currently no, I do not.
Your 2002 Ford F150 5.4 with 188,000 would run on 30w and not complain a bit.
I don't want to have to worry about the timing chain tensioners. A xw-30 could contribute to the problem.
Can you explain how the timing chain tensioner will be effected by the 30wt. I run 10w30 in my 4.6 currently. In the past i have run a lot of 0w40 and 5w30. No problems yet almost 20 years later and 180k miles. I do baby the ford though. I have looked into this issue. I backed away from 20wt as the oil pressure could get low at idle and not provide adequate tension ? My 99 ford came with 5w30 from factory. My rpms never go over 3k. So i dont worry about excessive oil pressure. Sure wish i had an oil pressure guage. Startup sounds are healthier with the 30 wt in my opinion as compared to the m1 0w20 ep that i tried.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
20w-20 means it meets the cold pumping specs for 20w and is an SAE 20 at operating temp. A mono SAE 20 might be a 30w rated when it's cold. Remember the w is not for weight. It's for winter.
So a SAE 30 wt oil is a SAE 40 wt when cold? Why is it not called a 30w-30 if that is the case?
He just didn't word it elegantly, that's all.
Let's try a different approach.
A 20w-20 and a 20w-50 both have to meet the 20w-XX cold cranking requirements. An ordinary SAE 20 or SAE 50 does not. And, incidentally, a 20w-20 can be a monograde if it has no viscosity index improvers.
yes, but can you have a 25W-20? I believe you can, but who would market that?
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
20w-20 means it meets the cold pumping specs for 20w and is an SAE 20 at operating temp. A mono SAE 20 might be a 30w rated when it's cold. Remember the w is not for weight. It's for winter.
So a SAE 30 wt oil is a SAE 40 wt when cold? Why is it not called a 30w-30 if that is the case?
He just didn't word it elegantly, that's all.
A 20w-20 and a 20w-50 both have to meet the 20w-XX cold cranking requirements. An ordinary SAE 20 or SAE 50 does not. And, incidentally, a 20w-20 can be a monograde if it has no viscosity index improvers.
yes, but can you have a 25W-20? I believe you can, but who would market that?
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
yes, but can you have a 25W-20? I believe you can, but who would market that?
I think you probably could, but that would be more confusing to the general public than the examples we have already. I already have people telling me 0w-40 is too thin for summer whereas 10w-30 is fine for summer, or that one should use 5w-40 in the summer and 0w-40 in the winter. Sheesh.
I did see a Castrol 20w-20 not too terribly long ago, as in the last couple years.
yes, but can you have a 25W-20? I believe you can, but who would market that?
I think you probably could, but that would be more confusing to the general public than the examples we have already. I already have people telling me 0w-40 is too thin for summer whereas 10w-30 is fine for summer, or that one should use 5w-40 in the summer and 0w-40 in the winter. Sheesh.
I did see a Castrol 20w-20 not too terribly long ago, as in the last couple years.
Garak;
I'm not sure about SAE marketing rules and how they apply to mono-grades, but if they have a W grade such as your example above, 20W20, the lowest winter grade that an engine oil passes must be the 1st number. If that is the case, many of the SAE mono-grade 20s would either have SAE 20 on the label, or some unrecognizable grade such as 15W20 and 10W20. Petro-Can dropped their Duron SAE 20 last year, the CCS passed 15W, the pumping 10W and cold flow very close to 5W. If marketed as a multi-grade, 15W20 might have been on the bottle, depending on rule interpretation.
Jetronic;
I agree that all metals found in UOAs are not wear items. I noticed a trend that winter samples showed some metals higher than summer samples and others swapping places. For example aluminum could be high in the winter and low in the summer. Iron and copper might swap places etc.
I came up with the notion that an engine when shut off hot in the winter, then cooled to a very low temperature overnight experiences acid and water condensation on engine parts, causing microscopic rust to form on the cylinder walls and maybe aluminum oxide from blocks and cylinder heads.
I'm not sure about SAE marketing rules and how they apply to mono-grades, but if they have a W grade such as your example above, 20W20, the lowest winter grade that an engine oil passes must be the 1st number. If that is the case, many of the SAE mono-grade 20s would either have SAE 20 on the label, or some unrecognizable grade such as 15W20 and 10W20. Petro-Can dropped their Duron SAE 20 last year, the CCS passed 15W, the pumping 10W and cold flow very close to 5W. If marketed as a multi-grade, 15W20 might have been on the bottle, depending on rule interpretation.
Jetronic;
I agree that all metals found in UOAs are not wear items. I noticed a trend that winter samples showed some metals higher than summer samples and others swapping places. For example aluminum could be high in the winter and low in the summer. Iron and copper might swap places etc.
I came up with the notion that an engine when shut off hot in the winter, then cooled to a very low temperature overnight experiences acid and water condensation on engine parts, causing microscopic rust to form on the cylinder walls and maybe aluminum oxide from blocks and cylinder heads.
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They probably could have come up with some variations that would have never shown up in an owner's manual and would have scared the heck out of potential customers.
Are you implicating yourself as a potential? The BITOG push for 10W20 hasn't gained a lot of traction as of late. Have a look at Chevron's Delo 400 SAE 20 and tell me what it actually is. Low saps 'n pour point...
www.chevronlubricants.com
www.chevronlubricants.com
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That SAE 20 has a pretty weak additive package.
Almost as if was the same one they put in the CK-4/SN Delo 400s.
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