Another Osprey crash, 5 Marines dead

Helicopters can shoot landings from 140 knot speed and flare to almost zero in an instant or just do a phase 2 approach and flare to a 50 ft hover and let troops fast rope out. It’s like you don’t have any idea about this, not calling you out just asking.
 
Very unfortunate there been so many Osprey crashes and deaths.

What benefits does the Osprey have over a very big and powerful helicopter like the H-53 that’s been in service since the late 1960’s ?



Sad that such a complex aircraft (with known problems) wasn’t killed off in it’s early stages of development.

*** Off Topic ***
I‘ve read about 10 books written by combat helicopter pilots who served in Vietnam War. They were cheating death every day going on various missions that were sometimes a suicide mission. I’ve always wondered how an Osprey could perform in such an environment if you could go back in time and have Ospreys in service flying daily in Vietnam.
Short answer is we wouldn't have used it in Vietnam or we'd have used something else. There's no way a group of 10 Ospreys is flaring into a hot LZ to drop troops or pick up wounded like the much smaller/nimble Huey did.
 
Helicopters can shoot landings from 140 knot speed and flare to almost zero in an instant or just do a phase 2 approach and flare to a 50 ft hover and let troops fast rope out. It’s like you don’t have any idea about this, not calling you out just asking.
Helicopters can't flare any faster than the Osprey, and they get to the LZ much slower.

So, what advantages (over a helicopter with the same capacity) does the Osprey bring to the battlefield?

Faster insertion into the conflict.

Greater radius of action.

The ability to hold a greater area of enemy territory at risk, complicating their ability to defend.

Lower risk from surface to air fires because of its much higher cruise altitude and speed.

The development of new tactics and methods for inserting troops, based on the airplanes speed, and range, advantages.

An Osprey can get far deeper into enemy territory, for example, as a result of speed and range, allowing insertion for behind the enemy lines/FEBA. The element of surprise, against an unsophisticated adversary, because the insertion is high and fast, is a huge advantage over a helicopter.

It's like asking what advantages a Mercedes has over a golf cart - both carry four people...but...
 
Would love to see it.
What basis do you have for your opinion, in other words, what airplanes are you qualified to fly?

Not the airplanes you have flown in, the ones for which you have been at the controls.

I’ve flown the H-60. Had a great time. Talked about it on this forum.

But you’re bashing an airplane, the Osprey, that you’ve never flown.

And comparing it with airplanes you’ve not flown, either.

Can the Osprey support VBSS?

Of course. And it can do it for a ship that is much farther away. Greater radius of action is a significant tactical advantage.

So is speed.
 
Well, first of all, Astro, I’m not a qualified pilot, I have, however, been at the controls of several different army aircraft. i’m also not bashing the V.22. I was just commenting to the fact that rotary wing aircraft or significantly better at doing some things.

I don’t have to be a qualified pilot to know the limitations and performance of certain aircraft mainly rotary wing since that’s my background. I’ve got 41 years in aviation some fixed wing but mostly rotary wing. I also have about 2000 flight hours. Does that compare to your flight hours? No it doesn’t but my job wasn’t to fly every day like yours was.

I think the Osprey has some awesome merits. It does have very good speed. It does have very good range. I personally Have worked with the special lops community from the Air Force. I’ve seen some of their flight parameters tactics, and I’ve never seen them flare out the way a Blackhawk can.

Osprey pilots in the Air Force one is a fixed wing guy. The other is a rotary wing guy to be able to handle aircraft through the transition. They found that’s what works best for them to keep them from balling them up.

When I said, I would like to see the V22 do that approach on the ship, I truly meant it I would love to see it. I’ve never got to see the V2 two put through its paces in combat style training that’s why I would like to see it. Their transition to the landing zones was long and steady and slow not fast and flared out the way we did in the helicopters.
 
Well, first of all, Astro, I’m not a qualified pilot, I have, however, been at the controls of several different army aircraft. i’m also not bashing the V.22. I was just commenting to the fact that rotary wing aircraft or significantly better at doing some things.

I don’t have to be a qualified pilot to know the limitations and performance of certain aircraft mainly rotary wing since that’s my background. I’ve got 41 years in aviation some fixed wing but mostly rotary wing. I also have about 2000 flight hours. Does that compare to your flight hours? No it doesn’t but my job wasn’t to fly every day like yours was.

I think the Osprey has some awesome merits. It does have very good speed. It does have very good range. I personally Have worked with the special lops community from the Air Force. I’ve seen some of their flight parameters tactics, and I’ve never seen them flare out the way a Blackhawk can.

Osprey pilots in the Air Force one is a fixed wing guy. The other is a rotary wing guy to be able to handle aircraft through the transition. They found that’s what works best for them to keep them from balling them up.

When I said, I would like to see the V22 do that approach on the ship, I truly meant it I would love to see it. I’ve never got to see the V2 two put through its paces in combat style training that’s why I would like to see it.
 
Even if a pure rotary wing airplane does “some things better” - the US Army has been looking for higher speed for along time.

The Commanche had both stealth and greater speed. The problem with any rotary wing and high speed is retreating blade stall. Gotta’ have wings, or faster rotation (an engineering challenge) or tilt rotor (an engineering challenge) to overcome the loss of lift from retreating blade stall.

By moving Marines to an insertion point at 280 knots instead of 140 knots, you force an enemy to cover an area that is four times bigger (twice the speed of action, so, four times the area) and that spreads them thin enough that they may not be able to respond. Even if they can respond, it’s with 1/4 of what they would have had when covering a slower speed insertion.

That’s the idea behind maneuver warfare - get forces to a critical location before the enemy can respond. Speed and range are king in that kind of warfare.

All that said, the Osprey fleet has been grounded pending an engineering investigation.

This isn’t the death knell that everyone makes it out to be. Fleets have been grounded many times in the past. The F-15 was grounded after one broke up in flight, for example. That airplane is still flying two decades after the grounding.

As airplanes age, they exhibit failures that weren’t anticipated.
 
Having followed this thread from inception, please allow me to present a plausible explanation for why these accidents MAY be occurring.

My sources are based on notes taken from articles in both the Wall Street Journal as well as Aviation Week & Space Technology over the past couple of years.

What’s disconcerting is the information that is bolded.

In July, the Marine Corps for the first time blamed one of the fatal Osprey crashes on a fleetwide problem that has been known for years but for which there’s still not a good fix. It’s known as hard clutch engagement, or HCE.

The Osprey’s two engines are linked by an interconnected drive shaft that runs inside the length of the wings. On each tip, by the engines, a component called a sprag clutch transfers torque, or power, from one proprotor to the other to make sure both rotors are spinning at the same speed. That keeps the Osprey’s flight in balance. If one of the two engines fails, the sprag clutch is also a safety feature: It will transfer power from the working side to the failing engine’s side to keep both rotors going.

But sprag clutches have also become a worrying element. As the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps began looking at HCE events following incidents in 2022, they determined that the clutches may be wearing out faster than anticipated.

Since 2010, Osprey clutches have slipped at least 15 times. As the system re-engages, hard clutch engagement occurs. In just fractions of a second, an HCE event creates a power spike that surges power to the other engine, which can throw the Osprey into an uncontrolled roll or slide. A power spike can also destroy a sprag clutch, essentially severing the interconnected drive shaft. That could result in the complete loss of aircraft control with little or no time for the pilots to react and save their Osprey or crew, Rivolo said.

In the 2022 crash of a Marine Corps MV-22 in California that killed five Marines, hard clutch engagement created an “unrecoverable, catastrophic mechanical failure,” the investigation found. The fire was so intense it destroyed the Osprey’s flight data recorder — another issue the Marines have pushed to fix, by requiring new flight data recorders to be better able to survive a crash.

Neither the services nor defense contractors Bell Textron or Boeing, which jointly produce the Osprey, have found a root cause. The clutch “may be the manifestation of the problem,” but not the root cause, Slife said.

Materiel strength was the subject of a whistleblower lawsuit that Boeing settled with the Justice Department in September for $8.1 million. Two former Boeing V-22 composites fabricators had come forward with allegations that Boeing was falsifying records certifying that it had performed the testing necessary to ensure it maintained uniform temperatures required to ensure the Osprey’s composite parts were strengthened according to DOD specifications.

A certain temperature was needed for uniform molecular bonding of the composite surface.

Without that bond, “the components will contain resin voids, linear porosity, and other defects that are not visible to the eye; which compromise the strength and other characteristics of the material, and which can cause catastrophic structural failures,” the lawsuit alleged.

In its settlement, the Justice Department contended Boeing did not meet the Pentagon’s manufacturing standards from 2007 to 2018; the whistleblowers contended in their lawsuit that this affected more than 80 Ospreys that were delivered in that time frame.
 
What amazes me about the Osprey, (and what I don't understand because of the complexity involved), is when it is transitioning from "airplane mode" to "helicopter mode", how the rotors gradually reduce or increase the movement, and / or effectiveness of the swash plates and cyclic control?

For example, in full "airplane mode" the props act like regular propellers, and the stick acts like a normal conventional aircraft, controlling both elevators and ailerons.

Then, when it transitions back into "helicopter mode", the stick has to gradually "become" a cyclic, and the props have to gradually "become" rotor blades, allowing the swash plates to come into effect more and more, as the props tilt more to the horizontal, thus becoming rotor blades.

(edit), Also, the propeller pitch controls, ("airplane mode"), have to gradually "become" a collective pitch control, "helicopter mode".

I know that most, if not all of this is controlled by flight computers. But when you look at everything that is taking place, along with how and when it's all taking place, it's difficult to comprehend. Especially when you factor in that this can, and does all take place in as little as 12 seconds.
 
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Too early to speculate on this incident.

Nothing is yet known.

The V-22 is a complex, high performance machine.

But like most airplanes, crashes happen because of pilot error.

Vortex ring state is well understood by know, and trained, but it’s still a big risk when coming in for a tactical landing.

Flying isn’t simple or easy. This airplane flies as both helicopter and airplane making it even more demanding than either.
I have steered a Cessna 152 and I will agree with the not easy part the skill level is beyond comprehension.
 
Textron’s Bell V-280 Valor could be a future replacement. Hopefully it won't have the gearbox problem which plagues the Osprey.

 
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