Another motorcraft failure
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Pressure is all-equalizing. There is no more pressure on the "left" side of the pleat than there is on the "right" side of the pleat. Pressure will always first find the highest dP void to occupy first. It makes no sense to me that the pleat would "fold" over simply because of oil pressure. The pressure would be on both sides of the pleat equally PRIOR to passing through the media. It's not like the oil is only going to push on one side of the pleat, folks.
Yet, when virgin Purolator filters where cut open that had wide pleat spacing at the seam, the pleats were always straight ... never bent over. And all used Purolators that tore on the ends of the pleats at the seam area always showed evidence of the pleat being bent over to some degree. Oil flow through all the pleats will not be equal if the pleat spacing is not perfectly equal. Very widely spaced pleats will provide a path of least flow resistance, and therefore more oil will try to flow through those areas of the media. Who knows exactly what kind of flow dynamics that might induce, and once a pleat starts to bend and tear, then it's all down hill from there. When the hole becomes large enough for dirty oil to flow through and reduce the side force, then the force on the pleat will equalize and stay in that condition.
Pressure is all-equalizing. There is no more pressure on the "left" side of the pleat than there is on the "right" side of the pleat. Pressure will always first find the highest dP void to occupy first. It makes no sense to me that the pleat would "fold" over simply because of oil pressure. The pressure would be on both sides of the pleat equally PRIOR to passing through the media. It's not like the oil is only going to push on one side of the pleat, folks.
Yet, when virgin Purolator filters where cut open that had wide pleat spacing at the seam, the pleats were always straight ... never bent over. And all used Purolators that tore on the ends of the pleats at the seam area always showed evidence of the pleat being bent over to some degree. Oil flow through all the pleats will not be equal if the pleat spacing is not perfectly equal. Very widely spaced pleats will provide a path of least flow resistance, and therefore more oil will try to flow through those areas of the media. Who knows exactly what kind of flow dynamics that might induce, and once a pleat starts to bend and tear, then it's all down hill from there. When the hole becomes large enough for dirty oil to flow through and reduce the side force, then the force on the pleat will equalize and stay in that condition.
The wide pleat is subject to higher inward radial force.
Pressure is static. Flow is dynamic. It is not the pressure or delta p at work here, the forces of flow and turbulence are that to be questioned and examined.
Yes pressure remains same in a single vessel, but flow can change when an obstacle is present, I.E. the media. Flow will take the path of least resistance and exploit it until it succumbs at it's weakest point.
This is how I see things, in regards to this problem. I am ok with someone disagreeing with my opinion, just sharing for the sake of conversation.
Yes pressure remains same in a single vessel, but flow can change when an obstacle is present, I.E. the media. Flow will take the path of least resistance and exploit it until it succumbs at it's weakest point.
This is how I see things, in regards to this problem. I am ok with someone disagreeing with my opinion, just sharing for the sake of conversation.
Seems clear that the wider pleats nearest the seam flex the most (as evidenced by their waviness) due to the volume and path the oil takes there. That greater force in the middle makes the entire pleat flex more than it can handle and tears at the first point the glue runs out or isn't enough to hold it rigid.
See my pictures of a cartridge filter here:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...mann-718-5x-cartridge-filter#Post5291744
Same waviness on the widest pleats near the seam can be seen. Also, see how much string there is to hold the pleats in place especially at the ends. A casual observation may lead one to believe it is excess string but I think it is extra reinforcement at the ends on purpose.
See my pictures of a cartridge filter here:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...mann-718-5x-cartridge-filter#Post5291744
Same waviness on the widest pleats near the seam can be seen. Also, see how much string there is to hold the pleats in place especially at the ends. A casual observation may lead one to believe it is excess string but I think it is extra reinforcement at the ends on purpose.
Given the issues my company has had with Ford, on the Transits, a garbage Motorcraft oil filter has to be WAY down on the list of their concerns. I'm still wondering if a GM/Chrysler bankruptcy is in their future. My concern with the MC filters is-they have issues, and they (meaning Mann AND Ford) really don't care, at all.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted by 69Torino
Pressure is static. Flow is dynamic. It is not the pressure or delta p at work here, the forces of flow and turbulence are that to be questioned and examined.
Yes pressure remains same in a single vessel, but flow can change when an obstacle is present, I.E. the media. Flow will take the path of least resistance and exploit it until it succumbs at it's weakest point.
This is how I see things, in regards to this problem. I am ok with someone disagreeing with my opinion, just sharing for the sake of conversation.
I disagree.
Pressure is a description of force/area. Pressure can be constant (stays at same pressure) or dynamic (pressure changes up/down).
Flow is a measure of a volume passing a reference point relative to time; it's a sense of 3-dimensional space moving at a velocity (the "flow" can be constant, or change).
They coexist in a filter. They are most often co-dependent, if other application criteria are held constant.
The pressure in an engine is mostly a result of the resistance to flow in the overall oil circuit. The pumps (typically positive displacement) will move what they can and as the rpms come up, so will the flow. Oil filters represent very little in the overall resistance of the circuit.
Some newer designs, though, are variable displacement pumps, and will alter how we look at this topic. The "flow" will change because the volume is manipulated. They will be able to alter flow relative to a desired pressure. 30psi at idle may flow different volumes than 30psi at 2300 rpm.
Pressure is static. Flow is dynamic. It is not the pressure or delta p at work here, the forces of flow and turbulence are that to be questioned and examined.
Yes pressure remains same in a single vessel, but flow can change when an obstacle is present, I.E. the media. Flow will take the path of least resistance and exploit it until it succumbs at it's weakest point.
This is how I see things, in regards to this problem. I am ok with someone disagreeing with my opinion, just sharing for the sake of conversation.
I disagree.
Pressure is a description of force/area. Pressure can be constant (stays at same pressure) or dynamic (pressure changes up/down).
Flow is a measure of a volume passing a reference point relative to time; it's a sense of 3-dimensional space moving at a velocity (the "flow" can be constant, or change).
They coexist in a filter. They are most often co-dependent, if other application criteria are held constant.
The pressure in an engine is mostly a result of the resistance to flow in the overall oil circuit. The pumps (typically positive displacement) will move what they can and as the rpms come up, so will the flow. Oil filters represent very little in the overall resistance of the circuit.
Some newer designs, though, are variable displacement pumps, and will alter how we look at this topic. The "flow" will change because the volume is manipulated. They will be able to alter flow relative to a desired pressure. 30psi at idle may flow different volumes than 30psi at 2300 rpm.
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4WD
$50 site donor 2025
I'd say permeability ... lowest perm takes greater load. Random porosity and random PSD of the "dirt" will choke some areas more than others.
The delta P might have gone up .., but that's just stored energy that becomes flow for all surfaces with permeability.
The pleats would have to flex a bit but show a propensity to tear where load resistance exists
(Near potting)
The delta P might have gone up .., but that's just stored energy that becomes flow for all surfaces with permeability.
The pleats would have to flex a bit but show a propensity to tear where load resistance exists
(Near potting)
MolaKule
Staff member
Fatigue Cracks - In cyclic flow conditions, cracks can form within the filter media, allowing a breach of oil to pass through unfiltered.
Again just speculating here.
The higher pressure side would be the outer area of the pleats with the holes on top.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29396/oil-filter-anatomy
Again just speculating here.
The higher pressure side would be the outer area of the pleats with the holes on top.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29396/oil-filter-anatomy
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4WD
$50 site donor 2025
There would be cyclic stress reversals ... and at some point a material becomes too weak. Of course that's why most companies build things with safety factors included.
But these guys bring a knife to a gun fight .. that media is weak when new.
But these guys bring a knife to a gun fight .. that media is weak when new.
Originally Posted by dnewton3
The pressure in an engine is mostly a result of the resistance to flow in the overall oil circuit. The pumps (typically positive displacement) will move what they can and as the rpms come up, so will the flow. Oil filters represent very little in the overall resistance of the circuit.
True ... but just looking at the oil filter, there can be some pretty good delta-p going on ... at least up to the point of the bypass valve setting. This could happen in very cold winter weather during cold start-up, and if the vehicle operator revs the engine pretty high for some reason before the oil warms up, then there certainly could be some decent level of delta-p across the media that would be above the bypass valve setting. Short spikes that shoot above the bypass setting could happen because the bypass valve is just a simple spring loaded device (with a level of reaction inertia to start moving) and can't respond instantly to fast short pressure spikes. This is why people should let the oil warm up some before getting on the gas pedal too much.
As far as wide spaced pleats, the oil flow impacting them could certainly deflect and start bending them over depending on how they are formed. Flowing oil causes a force to be put on all the outside surfaces of the media - that's the high side pressure of the delta-p across the media. And that "pressure field" is not necessarily perfectly even/balanced over the whole area of the media. It's pretty evident from many posted photos that pleats get bent over during use, and the only thing causing them to bend and flatten is the force due to the oil impacting them.
The pressure in an engine is mostly a result of the resistance to flow in the overall oil circuit. The pumps (typically positive displacement) will move what they can and as the rpms come up, so will the flow. Oil filters represent very little in the overall resistance of the circuit.
True ... but just looking at the oil filter, there can be some pretty good delta-p going on ... at least up to the point of the bypass valve setting. This could happen in very cold winter weather during cold start-up, and if the vehicle operator revs the engine pretty high for some reason before the oil warms up, then there certainly could be some decent level of delta-p across the media that would be above the bypass valve setting. Short spikes that shoot above the bypass setting could happen because the bypass valve is just a simple spring loaded device (with a level of reaction inertia to start moving) and can't respond instantly to fast short pressure spikes. This is why people should let the oil warm up some before getting on the gas pedal too much.
As far as wide spaced pleats, the oil flow impacting them could certainly deflect and start bending them over depending on how they are formed. Flowing oil causes a force to be put on all the outside surfaces of the media - that's the high side pressure of the delta-p across the media. And that "pressure field" is not necessarily perfectly even/balanced over the whole area of the media. It's pretty evident from many posted photos that pleats get bent over during use, and the only thing causing them to bend and flatten is the force due to the oil impacting them.
More interesting discussion here than in most threads on the same issue. I detect some confusion or uncertainty as to whether dynamic effects or pressure differential against resistance of the media is the primary threat to vulnerable filters.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... Flowing oil causes a force to be put on all the outside surfaces of the media - that's the high side pressure of the delta-p across the media. And that "pressure field" is not necessarily perfectly even/balanced over the whole area of the media. ...
If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... Flowing oil causes a force to be put on all the outside surfaces of the media - that's the high side pressure of the delta-p across the media. And that "pressure field" is not necessarily perfectly even/balanced over the whole area of the media. ...
If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
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Originally Posted by CR94
More interesting discussion here than in most threads on the same issue. I detect some confusion or uncertainty as to whether dynamic effects or pressure differential against resistance of the media is the primary threat to vulnerable filters.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... Flowing oil causes a force to be put on all the outside surfaces of the media - that's the high side pressure of the delta-p across the media. And that "pressure field" is not necessarily perfectly even/balanced over the whole area of the media. ...
If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Who says the media has to wait and tear when the filter is totally clogged. Obviously, it tears way before the media ever gets close to totally clogged. The "tear record" spreadsheet started when this all started shows filters tore with low mileage on them. Keep in mind this spreadsheet was not kept up to date for many years now.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oVZjE_Cmf59Bs5nSF9p4sMBhJaJ3X3Dey7u1asadJ4o/edit#gid=0
More interesting discussion here than in most threads on the same issue. I detect some confusion or uncertainty as to whether dynamic effects or pressure differential against resistance of the media is the primary threat to vulnerable filters.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
... Flowing oil causes a force to be put on all the outside surfaces of the media - that's the high side pressure of the delta-p across the media. And that "pressure field" is not necessarily perfectly even/balanced over the whole area of the media. ...
If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Who says the media has to wait and tear when the filter is totally clogged. Obviously, it tears way before the media ever gets close to totally clogged. The "tear record" spreadsheet started when this all started shows filters tore with low mileage on them. Keep in mind this spreadsheet was not kept up to date for many years now.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oVZjE_Cmf59Bs5nSF9p4sMBhJaJ3X3Dey7u1asadJ4o/edit#gid=0
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
Yep - that dynamic force is against a "sail area"
A screen door compared to a sail cloth as extreme examples of permeability
A screen door compared to a sail cloth as extreme examples of permeability
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by CR94
... If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Who says the media has to wait and tear when the filter is totally clogged. ...
Nobody. That misses the point of my next sentence.
Originally Posted by CR94
... If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Who says the media has to wait and tear when the filter is totally clogged. ...
Nobody. That misses the point of my next sentence.
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by CR94
... If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Who says the media has to wait and tear when the filter is totally clogged. ...
Nobody. That misses the point of my next sentence.
You said: "Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?"
Depends on what happens right after a cold start in very cold weather. Is a too high viscosity being used for the ambient temperatures? How fast does the engine fast idle? How long does the driver wait for the oil to warm up before revving the engine above a fast idle, and how far does the driver rev the engine after driving off? Lots of variables that can cause high filter delta-p.
When the oil is very cold and thick it won't take many revs to make the delta-p across the media rise quickly, and most likely to the bypass valve setting in PSI. Like mentioned before, most of the reported tears were on oil filters ran over the winter months. No surprise there because filters are exposed more often to higher levels of delta-p in cold winter months for the reasons stated.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by CR94
... If, hypothetically, the media were totally clogged, then that pressure would be uniform over the whole area of media. Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?
Who says the media has to wait and tear when the filter is totally clogged. ...
Nobody. That misses the point of my next sentence.
You said: "Is the real-world case of thick cold oil with engine at typical fast-idle speed so different?"
Depends on what happens right after a cold start in very cold weather. Is a too high viscosity being used for the ambient temperatures? How fast does the engine fast idle? How long does the driver wait for the oil to warm up before revving the engine above a fast idle, and how far does the driver rev the engine after driving off? Lots of variables that can cause high filter delta-p.
When the oil is very cold and thick it won't take many revs to make the delta-p across the media rise quickly, and most likely to the bypass valve setting in PSI. Like mentioned before, most of the reported tears were on oil filters ran over the winter months. No surprise there because filters are exposed more often to higher levels of delta-p in cold winter months for the reasons stated.
dnewton3
Staff member
For those whom think the "flow" (volumetric displacement) is driving the tears, I'll ask you to consider this ...
Let's say the engine is pumping 5 gal/min. And perhaps the filter has 25 pleats (a very low count, but easy math). That means on average that each pleat is passing 0.2 (two-tenths) of a gallon per minute. Or, .033 gal/sec. Add more pleats and the flow gets even lower per pleat. IMO- flow is not the cause.
In fact, dP is not the cause either. It may be accentuating the issue, but it's not the cause.
Root cause analysis is of note there. I've done this kind of work in my job as a line Quality Engineer. IMO there is something in the manufacturing process that is causing the issue. I'm not intimately familiar with the process, but I'm sure the bulk of it is automated. There is either a gripping force, folding force, bending force that is either out of time sequence, or perhaps over-force in setting, etc. This causes a weakness inherent in the media at that same, repeated location within the product. We generally are only seeing the tears in one location. It's not like pressure and flow have the ability to cause this failure at the same location each time. They are symptom that reveals the weakness, they are not the root cause.
Like I said, we have pretty much no data on virgin filters because we don't cut enough open. If we can get some data there, we'd have a better understanding. Virgin filters may not yet be torn, but they likely would have witness marks (pinch marks, depressions, altered structure, etc) that is the precursor to the event of failure.
Most would know that I'm a results-driven guy. What the end result is, well that matters most. In this case, the tears are undesirable and represent cause for concern. But that does not address the root cause of failure, nor the true effect of failure.
Even though we see these tears, are we seeing engine failures associated with them? Not that I can tell. Are we seeing disastrous UOAs coming from them? Not that I'm aware of. Are we seeing horrific PC data? Well, no one has posted up anything I have read about. What we have are anecdotal failures that are correlated with nothing, and have a yet-undiscovered root cause.
BITOGers are just fantastic at speculation, but unfortunately speculation really gets us no where. What to really know the root cause? It's going to take a lot more time/money to find out the virgin state of the media. What to know the actual effect of tears? It's going to take a lot more data to make an informed conclusion.
Until then, well, it's just the typical BITOG conjecture.
Let's say the engine is pumping 5 gal/min. And perhaps the filter has 25 pleats (a very low count, but easy math). That means on average that each pleat is passing 0.2 (two-tenths) of a gallon per minute. Or, .033 gal/sec. Add more pleats and the flow gets even lower per pleat. IMO- flow is not the cause.
In fact, dP is not the cause either. It may be accentuating the issue, but it's not the cause.
Root cause analysis is of note there. I've done this kind of work in my job as a line Quality Engineer. IMO there is something in the manufacturing process that is causing the issue. I'm not intimately familiar with the process, but I'm sure the bulk of it is automated. There is either a gripping force, folding force, bending force that is either out of time sequence, or perhaps over-force in setting, etc. This causes a weakness inherent in the media at that same, repeated location within the product. We generally are only seeing the tears in one location. It's not like pressure and flow have the ability to cause this failure at the same location each time. They are symptom that reveals the weakness, they are not the root cause.
Like I said, we have pretty much no data on virgin filters because we don't cut enough open. If we can get some data there, we'd have a better understanding. Virgin filters may not yet be torn, but they likely would have witness marks (pinch marks, depressions, altered structure, etc) that is the precursor to the event of failure.
Most would know that I'm a results-driven guy. What the end result is, well that matters most. In this case, the tears are undesirable and represent cause for concern. But that does not address the root cause of failure, nor the true effect of failure.
Even though we see these tears, are we seeing engine failures associated with them? Not that I can tell. Are we seeing disastrous UOAs coming from them? Not that I'm aware of. Are we seeing horrific PC data? Well, no one has posted up anything I have read about. What we have are anecdotal failures that are correlated with nothing, and have a yet-undiscovered root cause.
BITOGers are just fantastic at speculation, but unfortunately speculation really gets us no where. What to really know the root cause? It's going to take a lot more time/money to find out the virgin state of the media. What to know the actual effect of tears? It's going to take a lot more data to make an informed conclusion.
Until then, well, it's just the typical BITOG conjecture.
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I want to like Ford. I want to buy Ford. They have some compelling vehicles BUT there are just too many stories about Ford executives making sketchy decisions and not doing "the right thing". This week alone I've read about: 1. Dry-clutch DCT issues where execs knew for years it was a flawed design but kept producing it; 2. A class action where the paint primer appears to not be adhering to the aluminum body of F150s AND Ford denying warranty claims because it's a "primer" issue and not a paint issue and now; 3. Continuing to use faulty filters even after issuing TSBs because of the filter medium failing.
Hey I get it...no matter what Ford does those cash-cow F150s keep selling. As long as people are still buying there is no pressure on Ford to do the right thing.
Hey I get it...no matter what Ford does those cash-cow F150s keep selling. As long as people are still buying there is no pressure on Ford to do the right thing.
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Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I want to like Ford. I want to buy Ford. They have some compelling vehicles BUT there are just too many stories about Ford executives making sketchy decisions and not doing "the right thing". This week alone I've read about: 1. Dry-clutch DCT issues where execs knew for years it was a flawed design but kept producing it; 2. A class action where the paint primer appears to not be adhering to the aluminum body of F150s AND Ford denying warranty claims because it's a "primer" issue and not a paint issue and now; 3. Continuing to use faulty filters even after issuing TSBs because of the filter medium failing.
Hey I get it...no matter what Ford does those cash-cow F150s keep selling. As long as people are still buying there is no pressure on Ford to do the right thing.
Ford is typical of mega businesses that are privately-owned. Such enterprises can keep secrets a secret much longer. Leaks don't generally occur until upper-level positioned execs bail-out to seek better opportunities (mostly financial) elsewhere..... or, the buying consumer complaints mount, via injuries, death and/or insurance claim accidents that point fingers at faulty parts.
I want to like Ford. I want to buy Ford. They have some compelling vehicles BUT there are just too many stories about Ford executives making sketchy decisions and not doing "the right thing". This week alone I've read about: 1. Dry-clutch DCT issues where execs knew for years it was a flawed design but kept producing it; 2. A class action where the paint primer appears to not be adhering to the aluminum body of F150s AND Ford denying warranty claims because it's a "primer" issue and not a paint issue and now; 3. Continuing to use faulty filters even after issuing TSBs because of the filter medium failing.
Hey I get it...no matter what Ford does those cash-cow F150s keep selling. As long as people are still buying there is no pressure on Ford to do the right thing.
Ford is typical of mega businesses that are privately-owned. Such enterprises can keep secrets a secret much longer. Leaks don't generally occur until upper-level positioned execs bail-out to seek better opportunities (mostly financial) elsewhere..... or, the buying consumer complaints mount, via injuries, death and/or insurance claim accidents that point fingers at faulty parts.
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.
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