Another 737 mishap

Point is: you have to analyze. You have to determine what is real, what is accurate, and what is not. You absolutely must avoid panic. You absolutely must control the flight path of the airplane first, before starting to troubleshoot. Just like Ferris and I did that night.
Point taken...

When we compare how the Boeing pilots lost control versus the heroic actions
of Air Astana crew Flight 1388 performing emergency landing after
suffering severe flight control issues, with no fatalities. The
investigation found that the aileron cables were installed BACKWARDS,
causing a reversal of aileron controls... Mercy!!!

Watch the crew battled for 2 hours with their aircraft trying to kill them...

 
Not convinced they would have made it back had they not had technicians on board, or the extra pilot in the jump seat.

I read in another article that the pilots consulted with the technicians on board.

Curious if it was one of the pilots or the technicians that told them to put the flight control system into direct law. Whoever thought of that saved the day.

They did an amazing job but they had extra help that often doesn’t exist when dealing with a serious problem like they had.

The Lion Air B737 Max aircraft that crashed , had serious flight control issues the previous flight but it managed to land safely thanks to the help of a off duty 737 Max FO in the jump seat who told them to cut the power to the trim IIRC.

An extra set of experienced eyes ( and having technicians on board ) can really help out.

The United DC10 that lost all hydraulics and left pilots with no way of controlling the aircraft with the flight controls, also had an experienced check pilot in the jump seat ( was a passenger in the cabin ) that helped them out.

Until they figured out to put Embraer aircraft into direct law, all they had was rudder ( and power ) for directional control ( elevators were working normal ).

I can’t believe they didn’t do a flight control check, especially after picking up an aircraft that just came out of a heavy maintence check ( same with maintence not checking the flight controls ….direction of movement ).

 
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Personally?

Long overdue. I suspect many such meetings have occurred one on one. But the fact that the industry wants to meet with him is a sea change and indicative of frustration across all of the major carriers.

The refusal of Boeing’s CEO to meet with his customers?

A colossal failure. A failure in leadership, a failure to acknowledge his accountability in the mistakes Boeing is made. A failure to recognize customer concerns.

It’s a giant middle finger to all of his best customers and a huge win for Airbus.

Were I on the board of Boeing, I would call for his immediate resignation. As a shareholder, be assured that that is exactly how my shares will be voted at the next meeting.
And that is how I voted my shares.

Every single current board member - no.
Most of the prospective board members - no.
Most of the proposals - no.

The board themselves are at least complicit, and likely responsible, for the current state of affairs. Most of them have no experience in the transportation industry and most of them have no experience with airlines.

One of the worst proposals - Admiral John Richardson. A submariner, who is a risk-averse politician. A man of limited vision and extraordinary ability to tell which way the wind is blowing (that is not a compliment. If he were an aviator - we would call him "Breeze" for his ability to change his opinion to the prevailing wind).

My opinion based on his last few years of service.

The worst possible kind of person for righting this company. Status quo. No vision. No ability to think for himself. Will follow the herd while he continues to feather his nest. Just an awful pick.

Would love to be a fly on the wall in this shareholder meeting...
 
4. By 7pm we have story about conspiracy and government not telling us “truth.”
Is this not the new norm? I know so many people who now claim EVERY out of the ordinary news story is some conspiracy. These people must live very exciting lives full of constant mystery.
 
Is this not the new norm? I know so many people who now claim EVERY out of the ordinary news story is some conspiracy. These people must live very exciting lives full of constant mystery.
Privileged mentality. They have an attitude that one must explain to them why their thinking is not right. Besides students using "text language" in papers, this is the biggest issue I face.
 
Privileged mentality. They have an attitude that one must explain to them why their thinking is not right. Besides students using "text language" in papers, this is the biggest issue I face.
I think it's the difference between something that "could be happening = it IS happening in their head" vs something that is possible but unlikely to be happening vs something for which there is no evidence it is happening. I too find these people want me to prove to them their conspiracy theory is wrong because it "could be happening" when I see it as the onus is on them to provide ANY verifiable evidence it is happening.
 
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Our major corporations seem to all have the same over paid poor performing CEOs and management. . Boeing is a national asset. The management and board should all be in prison. I know i keep saying it. Stuff happens but this is not stuff happening.
 
And that is how I voted my shares.

Every single current board member - no.
Most of the prospective board members - no.
Most of the proposals - no.

The board themselves are at least complicit, and likely responsible, for the current state of affairs. Most of them have no experience in the transportation industry and most of them have no experience with airlines.

One of the worst proposals - Admiral John Richardson. A submariner, who is a risk-averse politician. A man of limited vision and extraordinary ability to tell which way the wind is blowing (that is not a compliment. If he were an aviator - we would call him "Breeze" for his ability to change his opinion to the prevailing wind).

My opinion based on his last few years of service.

The worst possible kind of person for righting this company. Status quo. No vision. No ability to think for himself. Will follow the herd while he continues to feather his nest. Just an awful pick.

Would love to be a fly on the wall in this shareholder meeting...
They all know there out. Just a matter of time. There just sitting tight to make sure they get their severance.

Full disclosure - I am a prospective owner of this stock, so if it goes down some more It actually helps me. The key is to not wait too long. No disrespect intended for current owners.
 
Our major corporations seem to all have the same over paid poor performing CEOs and management. . Boeing is a national asset. The management and board should all be in prison. I know i keep saying it. Stuff happens but this is not stuff happening.

Well that would surely attract the best and brightest to management/board positions.
 
Well that would surely attract the best and brightest to management/board positions.
Well, it’s quite clear that the best and brightest weren’t attracted by high pay and no risk.

So, what do you propose?

Maybe, instead of the revolving door across corporations, where the same Cabal of names shows up over and over, it’s time to promote from within the company.

You know, like the military does. Develop Subordinates. Teach them leadership. Promote them up.
 
Well, it’s quite clear that the best and brightest weren’t attracted by high pay and no risk.

So, what do you propose?

Maybe, instead of the revolving door across corporations, where the same Cabal of names shows up over and over, it’s time to promote from within the company.

You know, like the military does. Develop Subordinates. Teach them leadership. Promote them up.

Just saying you’re not going to get many qualified independent board members if the consequence for an error like Boeing’s is prison. Board members typically have E & O coverage but that wouldn’t save them from prison. And why on earth would a really capable individual opt for a career or board seat on a company with a risk profile like Boeing’s instead of a grocery chain, think tank or company that makes lawn mowers?

Agree corporate governance in general is an issue but that’s for shareholders to rectify. Watch what happens to Boeing’s board after the next proxy statement.
 
Just saying you’re not going to get many qualified independent board members if the consequence for an error like Boeing’s is prison. Board members typically have E & O coverage but that wouldn’t save them from prison. And why on earth would a really capable individual opt for a career or board seat on a company with a risk profile like Boeing’s instead of a grocery chain, think tank or company that makes lawn mowers?

Agree corporate governance in general is an issue but that’s for shareholders to rectify. Watch what happens to Boeing’s board after the next proxy statement.
I know how I voted my shares…
 
Point taken...

When we compare how the Boeing pilots lost control versus the heroic actions
of Air Astana crew Flight 1388 performing emergency landing after
suffering severe flight control issues, with no fatalities. The
investigation found that the aileron cables were installed BACKWARDS,
causing a reversal of aileron controls... Mercy!!!

Watch the crew battled for 2 hours with their aircraft trying to kill them...


That was a gnarly incident.

Those are the aircraft we work on, and OGMA in Portugal does the same type of work that we do, on the ERJs.

We talk about and think about that incident frequently as an example. It’s been incorporated into our training.

Just incredible that they got it landed! And it wasn’t even a crash landing! The only damage to the aircraft was due to major aerodynamic overstressing in flight because of the control problems!
 
Well, it’s quite clear that the best and brightest weren’t attracted by high pay and no risk.

So, what do you propose?

Maybe, instead of the revolving door across corporations, where the same Cabal of names shows up over and over, it’s time to promote from within the company.

You know, like the military does. Develop Subordinates. Teach them leadership. Promote them up.
You need to both develop internally and bring in outside eyes because all organizations develop blind spots that long time insiders don’t necessarily see.

When we look at boards, we are looking to get people who have the experience in the constituent components of a business. So, to your suggestion, someone who worked their way up at, for example, Embraer or Airbus, so you get the hands on experience and a different perspective. (If I were Target, instead of featuring women’s bathing suits with male genital pouches, I would be looking to recruit the Walmart store manager featured in the WSJ a few days ago - she would provide tremendous value, in terms of straightening out your stores), You also need finance, operations, and logistics expertise. Obviously a commercial airline exec’s experience could also be useful, as would pilots. Different perspectives with expertise on the “ingredients” that go into airplane manufacture, but also the actual business itself. These people showing up, everyday, with actual familiarity into the business process and culture, asking questions when asked to authorize different programs or fix various issues.

The real problem today is that board membership has become viewed as a passive exercise, an honorarium of sorts for successful executives and other dignitaries. If you want a competent board, you have to actually pay (a lot of these positions, not necessarily Boeing but in general) don’t pay that well in terms of cash compensation but rather deferred equity comp, and that tends to be attractive to those who appreciate prestige but don’t need day to day cash, and sets up an expectation of sorts that membership is not an actual job. There should be an expectation that board membership is a full time position, not a fly in a couple times of year gig where there is a big lunch and a few hours of meetings. The board and executives should be expected to work where the actual business is, so in this case, close to a manufacturing plant or where the business is. They need to understand the operations at a sufficient level of granularity to know when they are being snowed or not told the complete picture.

Finally, I appreciate that direct shareholders are understandably upset at the situation. But coming to an Internet forum to tell everyone how you voted shares can come off as a bragging of sorts because unless you are Warren Buffett, the average shareholder has as much ability to influence the composition of the board of Boeing as you do pissing into the ocean and claiming you are altering its pH. It may not have been the intention to brag, but respectfully that is how it comes off. It’s also another argument for buying indexes instead of direct holdings but that is a different subject and a different debate. We are all just observers here at the end of the proverbial day.
 
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You need to both develop internally and bring in outside eyes because all organizations develop blind spots that long time insiders don’t necessarily see.

When we look at boards, we are looking to get people who have the experience in the constituent components of a business. So, to your suggestion, someone who worked their way up at, for example, Embraer or Airbus, so you get the hands on experience and a different perspective. (If I were Target, instead of featuring women’s bathing suits with male genital pouches, I would be looking to recruit the Walmart store manager featured in the WSJ a few days ago - she would provide tremendous value, I. Terms of straightening out your stores), You also need finance, operations, and logistics expertise. Obviously a commercial airline exec’s experience could also be useful, as would pilots. Different perspectives with expertise on the “ingredients” that go into airplane manufacture, but also the actual business itself. These people showing up, everyday, with actual familiarity into the business process and culture, asking questions when asked to authorize different programs or fix various issues.

The real problem today is that board membership has become viewed as a passive exercise, an honorarium of sorts for successful executives and other dignitaries. If you want a competent board, you have to actually pay (a lot of these positions, not necessarily Boeing but in general) don’t pay that well in terms of cash compensation but rather deferred equity comp, and that tends to be attractive to those who appreciate prestige but don’t need day to day cash, and sets up an expectation of sorts that membership is not an actual job. There should be am expectation that board membership is a full time position, not a fly in a couple times of year gig where there is a big lunch and a few hours of meetings. The board and executives should be expected to work where the actual business is, so in this case, close to a manufacturing plant or where the business is. They need to understand the operations at a sufficient level of granularity to know when they are being snowed or not told the complete picture.

Finally, I appreciate that direct shareholders are understandably upset at the situation. But coming to an Internet forum to tell everyone how you voted shares can come off as a bragging of sorts because unless you are Warren Buffett, the average shareholder has as much ability to influence the composition of the board as you do pissing into the ocean and claiming you are altering its pH. It may not have been the intention to brag, but respectfully that is how it comes off. It’s also another argument for buying indexes instead of direct holdings but that is a different subject and a different debate. We are all just observers here at the end of the proverbial day.
To read one of my posts and then judge either my actions, or position, on Boeing, is like the proverbial blind man grabbing the tail of an elephant and stating that “an elephant is tall, thin, and hairy”.

I am telling the folks here how one average, small shareholder has voted. I suspect, as I have said in other posts, that I am not alone in my sentiment.

I’ve been a pilot for 37 years. Flown Boeing for 27 of those. Been a shareholder for 16 years. AW&ST subscriber for over 30. Followed the company and kept up on how it has been operated, for far longer.

I’ve discussed the decision to develop the Sonic Cruiser, which then became 7E7, which then became 787. I’ve talked about the Max decision, at length. The NMA decision.

Not a flex at all to discuss my utter and complete dis-satisfaction with how the company has been run and how my few hundred shares will be voted. That’s the only thing shareholders can do. I discussed how the board will be viewed, how the CEO will be viewed, and shares voted, in a post months ago, and was simply following up. My prediction on Calhoun’s departure was right on.

I encourage you to go back and read my body of posts on Boeing, on aircraft mishaps, and, perhaps, if you’re interested, other aviation threads. My quoted post is simply one small step on a very long path on this topic.

Finally, when it comes to corporate oversight, I have no insight, but when it comes to leadership, and responsibility, I have deeply held convictions about both as the result of 30 years of military experience. I have high standards, and I continue to be disappointed by the complete lack of leadership, and responsibility, on corporate boards in general, Boeing in particular.

I do pay attention to the decisions made by them at companies whose shares I hold, or whose shares I am considering buying. It’s what responsible investors do, I think, and my wife, a retired Navy Captain, and intelligence officer, is the one who does the daily intel gathering on what’s going on in the world, and who guides and informs our investment decisions.

I have a good friend who was a fighter pilot, is now in Venture Capital, and teaches at HBS. In his words - Corporate America suffers from a lack of leadership. He offered to help me find my way into corporate governance years ago, to leverage my experience, in helping and guiding companies.

I declined - still having too much fun flying airplanes. Boeings, these days. But the good Boeings - the 757/767 - built by a company that valued engineering excellence and built the best - not the compromised, badly engineered, underperforming, profit-seeking pig that is the Max.
 
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To read one of my posts and then judge either my actions, or position, on Boeing, is like the proverbial blind man grabbing the tail of an elephant and stating that “an elephant is tall, thin, and hairy”.

I am telling the folks here how one average, small shareholder has voted. I suspect, as I have said in other posts, that I am not alone in my sentiment.

I’ve been a pilot for 37 years. Flown Boeing for 27 of those. Been a shareholder for 16 years. AW&ST subscriber for over 30. Followed the company and kept up on how it has been operated, for far longer.

I’ve discussed the decision to develop the Sonic Cruiser, which then became 7E7, which then became 787. I’ve talked about the Max decision, at length. The NMA decision.

Not a flex at all to discuss my utter and complete dis-satisfaction with how the company has been run and how my few hundred shares will be voted. That’s the only thing shareholders can do. I discussed how the board will be viewed, how the CEO will be viewed, and shares voted, in a post months ago, and was simply following up. My prediction on Calhoun’s departure was right on.

I encourage you to go back and read my body of posts on Boeing, on aircraft mishaps, and, perhaps, if you’re interested, other aviation threads. My quoted post is simply one small step on a very long path on this topic.

Finally, when it comes to corporate oversight, I have no insight, but when it comes to leadership, and responsibility, I have deeply held convictions about both as the result of 30 years of military experience. I have high standards, and I continue to be disappointed by the complete lack of leadership, and responsibility, on corporate boards in general, Boeing in particular.

I do pay attention to the decisions made by them at companies whose shares I hold, or whose shares I am considering buying. It’s what responsible investors do, I think, and my wife, a retired Navy Captain, and intelligence officer, is the one who does the daily intel gathering on what’s going on in the world, and who guides and informs our investment decisions.

I have a good friend who was a fighter pilot, is now in Venture Capital, and teaches at HBS. In his words - Corporate America suffers from a lack of leadership. He offered to help me find my way into corporate governance years ago, to leverage my experience, in helping and guiding companies.

I declined - still having too much fun flying airplanes. Boeings, these days. But the good Boeings - the 757/767 - built by a company that valued engineering excellence and built the best - not the compromised, badly engineered, underperforming, profit-seeking pig that is the Max.
I see I hit a nerve but that was not my intention. I have learned from reading of your experiences but I noted that the comments about voting your stock could come off the wrong way. That is really all.

As far as leadership goes, I don’t disagree with you but the problem is that neither you nor I, nor anyone else here, really knows the people involved. Certainly it is fair to say that things were screwed up at a non-technical level but that doesn’t necessarily equate to leadership or the lack thereof, as a cause. It is one of the reasons that finding out actual causation is important, because it then allows one to more accurately reconstruct the chain of failures that led to the problems at issue. Stated differently, stupidity, greed, cowardice, and laziness are nothing new for human beings— human beings really haven’t changed all that much in 10,000 years or so of recorded history. The stories from the Bible, or antiquity, when understood in context, portray stories remarkably similar to how people behave today. And all those traits existed when Boeing was making the great airplanes. What changed at a granular level, and what do those failures tell us, if anything, about the management (or mismanagement) by the company and the board? I agree it’s likely there was some lack of leadership but one of the things that a lot of management consultants (and politicians) do, and that I really dislike, is when they use broad platitudes that are broadly agreeable but that in practice tell you little. “We want to have manufacturing excellence.” Ok terrific, who doesn’t, but how do you translate that to a flawless product? That is really the question, and doing the work to find the flaws or problems is hard, and often benefits from people with a variety of backgrounds. Slogans will accomplish little other than to reinforce existing worldviews and establish that the person reflexively relying on them is not in possession of the actual facts of what went wrong. My interest in the story is that Boeing is perhaps the most or one of the most important companies in the U.S. I believe it’s the largest direct and indirect employer in the U.S., and its fete has important ramifications for our industrial base, national defense, and overall economic leadership. So from that perspective, I have a real interest in informed discussion and debate about what has gone wrong with this great American company. You have contributed to that discussion so I will end on a positive note and say thank you. Take care.
 
I see I hit a nerve but that was not my intention. I have learned from reading of your experiences but I noted that the comments about voting your stock could come off the wrong way. That is really all.

As far as leadership goes, I don’t disagree with you but the problem is that neither you nor I, nor anyone else here, really knows the people involved. Certainly it is fair to say that things were screwed up at a non-technical level but that doesn’t necessarily equate to leadership or the lack thereof, as a cause. It is one of the reasons that finding out actual causation is important, because it then allows one to more accurately reconstruct the chain of failures that led to the problems at issue. Stated differently, stupidity, greed, cowardice, and laziness are nothing new for human beings— human beings really haven’t changed all that much in 10,000 years or so of recorded history. The stories from the Bible, or antiquity, when understood in context, portray stories remarkably similar to how people behave today. And all those traits existed when Boeing was making the great airplanes. What changed at a granular level, and what do those failures tell us, if anything, about the management (or mismanagement) by the company and the board? I agree it’s likely there was some lack of leadership but one of the things that a lot of management consultants (and politicians) do, and that I really dislike, is when they use broad platitudes that are broadly agreeable but that in practice tell you little. “We want to have manufacturing excellence.” Ok terrific, who doesn’t, but how do you translate that to a flawless product? That is really the question, and doing the work to find the flaws or problems is hard, and often benefits from people with a variety of backgrounds. Slogans will accomplish little other than to reinforce existing worldviews and establish that the person reflexively relying on them is not in possession of the actual facts of what went wrong. My interest in the story is that Boeing is perhaps the most or one of the most important companies in the U.S. I believe it’s the largest direct and indirect employer in the U.S., and its fete has important ramifications for our industrial base, national defense, and overall economic leadership. So from that perspective, I have a real interest in informed discussion and debate about what has gone wrong with this great American company. You have contributed to that discussion so I will end on a positive note and say thank you. Take care.
I think we agree on a great deal. I had no illusions about the impact of my vote, but that impact is the only one available to me.

I have a friend who is the chief test pilot at Boeing (Craig Bomben). Out of respect, I haven’t reached out to him at all during the Max crisis, or the current crisis. I doubt I would have any impact via that route, either, and it would not be fair to Bomber.

You’re right about human nature. But the question is one of leadership and culture. The right culture can overcome the worst of human nature, most of the time. I’ve seen that in the military, and in Joe Sutter’s book on the 747, You can see how one passionate engineer, who was given a project (recover our investment in the losing USAF cargo plane by selling 50 passenger versions) changed the course of a company, and aviation history. The 747 did all that. It killed the SST. It lowered the cost of air travel, and made it affordable.

When I see prospective board members like ADM Richardson, I lose hope. A career politician, really, not a warfighter, and not leader as I mean the term, he will do nothing to encourage engineering excellence, all while spouting the pointless slogans to which you refer. Ask anyone who was on his staff. No vision. No risk.

Most importantly - no empowerment or respect for the subordinates that actually have good ideas and make the place run. His tenure at US Fleet Forces was dramatic for its absolute repression of good ideas, of quelling any independent thinking, and or stripping subordinates of any influence. In other words - he is remarkably like the current board.

The board listened to Joe Sutter, and gave him the green light for extra funding on his project.

They empowered independent thinking. They allowed him to speak. They listened to the aircraft designer over the bean counter. Where are the board members like that these days?

In an effort to be an informed voter, I researched every board member (thanks Google). I was particularly dismayed to see Lynn Good, current CEO of Duke, on the board. Another company in which I’ve invested, and which has disappointed.

While human nature is pretty constant, the good parts of that nature, like leadership, vision, and empowering your people to achieve that vision, are sadly lacking at Boeing and I saw not one prospective board member that had a chance of bringing it back.

No Oscar Munoz waited in the wings. The field was simply more of the same. Well, doing more of the same that got us into this surely won’t get us out.

Worse, the Intel officer herself (henceforth referred to as “the admiral”) reported this morning that Boeing was going after all the whistleblowers.

That’s exactly the corporate culture that got Boeing in trouble. Squash your employees, strip them of input, hide your mistakes. That’s the plan? Really?

No vision. No leadership. No empowerment. Just avoid risk by quelling opposition, refusing to acknowledge mistakes, coming down on your employees and silencing them.

Boeing has a long way to go to recover.
 
What do you make of Stephanie Pope? The WSJ had an interesting profile of her. She is finance type which is strike against in my mind, plus from McD, which in mind is where the problems started - strike two in other words. But her dad and grandfather worked at McD, in what appear to be line / production roles, so that hopefully indicates making great airplanes is a genuine calling and not a case of her selling widgets. We shall see.

Amazing the people who made the 777 are now involved in this. (777 is my favorite Boeing plane; 747 is second.)
 
That was a gnarly incident.

Those are the aircraft we work on, and OGMA in Portugal does the same type of work that we do, on the ERJs.

We talk about and think about that incident frequently as an example. It’s been incorporated into our training.

Just incredible that they got it landed! And it wasn’t even a crash landing! The only damage to the aircraft was due to major aerodynamic overstressing in flight because of the control problems!
All preventable.

That was one expensive improper flight control check by both groups.

Hard to believe they were ever doing proper flight control checks given they failed to do so even when knowing the plane just came out of a major inspection.

Weird, up here, multiple people have to sign off when work is done on flight controls.

Aircraft was written off.

“ Before take off checklist please”……” full up, full down, neutral. Full left, full right, neutral. Full left, full right ( rudders ) , neutral”.

FO is supposed to look at the flight control movements on the screen to make sure they move in the proper direction.

Edit: Part of the “training” has ALWAYS been to do proper flight control checks, for both pilots, and maintence.

Not much can be done to prevent these types of incidents unless all parties follow established procedures.

If I go flying and the FO doesn’t do a proper flight control check, I won’t know because ( and I am looking out the front window , taxiing ) it’s not something Captains cross check ( not part of any procedures ).

Follow proper procedures.
 
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