After Market Oil Filter Concern for Hyundai/Kia ?

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

You missed the point, which was if the oiling system is so sensitive to what filter and oil viscosity is being used, then it could very well be under designed. Maybe the oil pump is really weak in these engines and the pump goes into bypass/pressure relief mode way too easily. Or maybe some of the oiling circuit is already too restrictive and therefore very sensitive to any filter and oil viscosity changes. No, the car manufacturers do not design around aftermarket filter manufacturers ... but if they were smart at least they should consider as part of their design criteria the range of possible filters that could be used on that particular engine.



First of all the point your are trying to make is an assumption. Without being on the engineering team or access to proprietary data of what their start and end point in the design was, to say they "under designed" is conjecture at best.

Absence of fact does not make the supposition.


Just sayin' ... an assumption with some possible validity it. You don't really see many similar TSBs from all the car makers ... except for maybe Nissan (weak oiling systems too?). Seem a little sensitive to the issue.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: accent2012


Unfortunately my dealership charges $9 for the Hyundai filter w/out the O-ring.


That sucks. My local dealer isn't very good, they won't offer any discount on parts claiming they have "no wiggle room" and "Hyundai sets the prices." I've showed them printouts with prices from online Hyundai dealers and asked about the discounts they give shops, but they won't budge from MSRP. I've started ordering all my genuine Hyundai parts online.

Even that dealer only charges about $6.50 + tax for the filter, which I believe is MSRP. Your local dealer seems to be trying to make a quick few buck off you.

If you look on ebay, you can buy sets of 5 or 10 genuine filters for a better price than you can get them locally.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
............. Seem a little sensitive to the issue.

That would be another false assumption.

 

[ChrisD46]

Hootbro: I have used a number of Kia / Hyundai oil filters in the past - excellent filter and reasonably priced (under $7.00). * My real issue is I bought a few oil deals (M1 oil plus M1 extended oil filter) where the oil filter in the sale cost me 50% less than standard price . Has anyone taken the oil filters back to a store after such a sale and traded them in for other merchandise or asked for their money back for the oil filter ?

 

[BeerCan]

I read on one of the Hyundai forums that the culprit was a fram filter. There is/was an issue with the spring / bypass pressure and it was causing a flow issue. Supposedly that filter model was delisted by fram for use with the Hyundai.

How much of this is true or conjecture I cannot say. I also looked for the thread so I could link it but I cannot find it at this time. If I manage to find it I will post a link.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
Hootbro: I have used a number of Kia / Hyundai oil filters in the past - excellent filter and reasonably priced (under $7.00). * My real issue is I bought a few oil deals (M1 oil plus M1 extended oil filter) where the oil filter in the sale cost me 50% less than standard price . Has anyone taken the oil filters back to a store after such a sale and traded them in for other merchandise or asked for their money back for the oil filter ?


If you have a second car, claim ignorance and see if they will let you trade to another filter if within the same price range.

Push came to shove if I was in your position and of "resonable" opinion that the filters you had were of decent quality, I would just use them up and go OEM after that.

For the record, I have never argued anybody was wrong for using a non OEM filter, just stating the possible outcomes that can arise if you do so choose to use non OEM, have a problem and then potential issue of redress if warranty compensation is at stake.

In my case, both my Soul and Accord take the same cataloged number filter from the non OEM filter makers. I already had a stash of non OEM filters for my Accord but still went ahead and bought a case of the OEM KIA/Hyundai filters to be safe.

I can say after previously owning a 1st Gen KIA Sportage and now a new Soul, they have come a long way in terms of fit, finish and quality. Of course my old Sportage engine was a rehashed 1980's version of a old Mazda design (maybe Mitsubishi as I can not remember exactly). Either way that Sportage engine was not picky about any filter you put on it. Rest of it was a piece of [censored], but the engine was sound.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: BeerCan
I read on one of the Hyundai forums that the culprit was a fram filter.


Hmmm....I didn't have that experience.

When I bought my Sonata (used), it had a Fram orange can on it. I drove it until that oil had about 5k on it.

The car only started knocking after I changed the oil and put on the Champion Labs made STP filter.

I like Champion Labs filters, so I'm not knocking them. I think there was just something incompatible between that filter and the car.

 

[ChrisD46]

Hootbro : Yes , I have another non Kia / Hyundai (Buick 3.1L) that I could trade the filters for (same price) . * A last question - My Kia Sedona takes a cartridge style filter . I took a OEM cartridge filter into NAPA and compared against a NAPA Gold cartridge filer - only visual difference I could see was the OEM filter had thicker filtering media - anything else I should look for ?

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
Hootbro : Yes , I have another non Kia / Hyundai (Buick 3.1L) that I could trade the filters for (same price) . * A last question - My Kia Sedona takes a cartridge style filter . I took a OEM cartridge filter into NAPA and compared against a NAPA Gold cartridge filer - only visual difference I could see was the OEM filter had thicker filtering media - anything else I should look for ?


I think 99% of KIA's a problems and oil filters has been with the can type and not the cartridge filters. Cartridge filter applications have the bypass built with the cars themselves. I would use what you got already. The NAPA Gold stuff is pretty good.

As to looking for anything else, I can not really comment as I am not familiar with that specific filter construction. My Toyota's use a cartridge filter but they are different with no rigid base or supported fiber end caps.

 

[pbm]

Having recently acquired a 2008 Elantra with the Beta II engine I was interested in what oil/filter to run. I became aware of this 'issue' with aftermarket filters. The reason I am bumping this old thread is to point out something from Wikipedia regarding the Beta II engine.

Here's the Wikipedia post:

Beta II[edit source]

During 2001-2002, the new Beta II (G4GC) engine made its debut in models such as the XD Elantra and GK Tiburon. Output is 138 hp (102 kW) at 6000 rpm with 136 pound-feet (184 N·m) of torque (184 N·m) at 4500 rpm[citation needed]. It has a cast iron engine block and aluminum DOHC cylinder heads. The latest version of the 2.0L Beta engine (G4GC) features CVVT, which exists only on the intake side, a first for Hyundai/Kia. The following changes were noted.
Redesigned block with external contouring of cylinder bores (instead of flat sides), extra ribbing and one extra transaxle fixing point (now 5)(less NVH)
Crankshaft now has 8 counterweights instead of 4.(NVH)
Cast & ribbed aluminium sump pan (instead of pressed steel sheet) with stronger joint to transaxle (NVH)
Reshaped combustion chambers, ports & pistons (performance, [fuel] economy, emissions)
20 mm (0.8 in) longer intake rams, 8% smaller surge tank, resonator added, spark timing and valve lift optimized, lighter valve springs, denser conrod bearings, returnless fuel system (instead of return type) with higher fuel pressure and smaller injectors (torque spread and economy)
Cylinder head machined to more precise tolerances
Head gasket now 2-layer (instead of 3)
Idle speed reduced to 700 rpm from 800 rpm (NVH)
Hydraulic engine mounts (4) instead of rubber (NVH)
Heat shield installed between engine and air filter, reducing heating of induction air.
New camcover with I-piece high-specific gravity polypropylene baffle (ilo 2-piece pp)
Oil flow reduced (economy)
Mechanical valve lash adjusters (solid lifters) replace hydraulic, improving valve clearance precision (durability).
Lower valve spring load reduces valve train friction (performance).
Engine cover installed (NVH and dress up engine bay)
Catalytic converter now upstream adjoining exhaust manifold (ilo under car) (emissions)
Other detail changes to: alternator, intake manifold brace, power steering & a/c pulleys, idle speed actuator, oil filler cap & drive plate between engine & torque converter [1]

In 2008 the Beta II was modified to produce 142 horsepower (106 kW) and 137 lb·ft (186 N·m) of torque...


What do you make of the quote "Oil flow reduced (economy)"?
Could this reduction in oil flow be the reason for the filter sensitivity?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: pbm
What do you make of the quote "Oil flow reduced (economy)"? Could this reduction in oil flow be the reason for the filter sensitivity?


Could have something to do with it. All depends on what kind of oil pump that engine has, and what the pressure relief is set to. I think it probably is a "sensitive" oiling system, and if someone gets a pretty restrictive oil filter (ie, maybe some counterfeit Chinese knock-offs that don't flow), then the system goes into pressure relief/cardiac arrest and the oil flow to the engine is restricted.

 

[ChrisD46]

Besides KIA / Hyundai OEM filters , I have had good luck with Purolator Pure 1 and Mobil 1 oil filters in a '10 Elantra . I use the M1 and P1 oil filters with AAP monthly specials for synthetic oils and the KIA / Hyundai OEM filters when I pick up a jug of synthetic oil of choice from WM . Three filter choices and oil from either WM or monthly oil + filter specials from AAP leave me not wanting anything additional in the oil dept. ...

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
Besides KIA / Hyundai OEM filters , I have had good luck with Purolator Pure 1 and Mobil 1 oil filters in a '10 Elantra . I use the M1 and P1 oil filters with AAP monthly specials for synthetic oils and the KIA / Hyundai OEM filters when I pick up a jug of synthetic oil of choice from WM . Three filter choices and oil from either WM or monthly oil + filter specials from AAP leave me not wanting anything additional in the oil dept. ...



I'm glad to hear that the Pureone works well as it's a great filter. I had worried that it might be too restrictive in this application (especially in winter).

 

[ChrisD46]

I believe I saw a chart here somewhere that indicated the Pure One was one of the LEAST restrictive premium oil filters you could buy ! I never have any start up noise or any other type of noise that would indicate the engine was suffering some how using a Pure One filter (or M1 for that matter) .

 

[Sayjac]

Just installed my third Napa Gold 7250 on my 3.8L Genesis, couldn't be more satisfied. And considering I got them on sale for about a third the cost of the now Mahle felt endcap oem, that much more satisfied.

And afaik there is no Purolator P1 in the 7250 only a Classic. Based on my research and experience the Classic looks identical to the NG, it's made in the same country (S.Korea) and may well be made in the same factory. That said, it's everyday price at AAP is twice that of the NG's everyday price.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
I believe I saw a chart here somewhere that indicated the Pure One was one of the LEAST restrictive premium oil filters you could buy ! I never have any start up noise or any other type of noise that would indicate the engine was suffering some how using a Pure One filter (or M1 for that matter) .


See info in this thread. A few posts down has the graph of cold oil flow compared to other filters at the time.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

 

[Errtt]

Originally Posted By: pbm

What do you make of the quote "Oil flow reduced (economy)"?
Could this reduction in oil flow be the reason for the filter sensitivity?


Wonder how much flow reduction they are talking about - they don't say.
After a OC & filter change... I'd want the flow to get on with it, 1st start and not take its sweet time thinking about oiling the innards.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: pbm

What do you make of the quote "Oil flow reduced (economy)"?
Could this reduction in oil flow be the reason for the filter sensitivity?


I calculated that it takes less than 1/2 HP to pump 10 GPM at 80 PSI ... and that would occur near redline if does occur. I doubt the KIA/Hyundai engines are even close to putting out 10 GPM @ 80 PSI.

Pump Input Horsepower = HP
Assume efficiency is 100% (1.0)
HP = GPM × Pressure (psi) / 1714 × Efficiency
HP = 10 x 80 / 1714
HP = 0.47

Ref:
http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/fluidpowerformulas.htm

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Donald
A quality oil filter will be fine. If its so special and aftermarket would void the warranty, then the manufacturer needs to supply them for free. Thats the law.


Not quite.
A quality oil filter may work fine on different type oiling systems however sometimes a filter(Honda) can be too good and ends up being too restrictive which leads to inadequate oiling.
I remember years ago Honda insisted that oem filters be used,even though the filters were horrible as far as filtering ability(50%@30 microns rings a bell but I may be mistaken) however their oil pumps were weak and the filter had to be the as small a restriction as possible otherwise their wasn't enough volume and engines failed over time.
So a filter that was too efficient was actually the enemy. I vaguely remember also reading the 1 filter for 2 oil change intervals being either required or suggested around the same time.
Its like motorcycles. Some guys think just because a car filter fits on the mount its great and they save a buck not knowing the by-pass pressure settings aren't even close to being the same and the bike ends up starving for oil because the by-pass doesn't open cold and the oil is way too thick cold to move fast enough with enough volume to oil critical points at that already brutal cold,dry start.
I'm not saying that this is the issue with Hyundai,but I am saying one size doesn't always fit all.

 

[doitmyself]

Clevy,

Your/this discussion is going to send the paranoid over the top. You are saying that there is inherent risk in using anything other than OEM oil filters. The other camp is saying that Purolator Pure Ones offer much better engine protection with both better efficiency and superb flow rates.

Decisions, decisions (for some)