2004 Honda CR-V, M1 0W-20 @ 20,000 mi

[Razl]

Auto- 2004 Honda CR-V
Miles- Engine= 40,000 mi, Oil= 20,000 mi
Oil- M1 0W-20. Added roughly 2/3 qt per filter change.
Oil filter- "oversized" PL14459 changed 3X (7k,6k,7k) BP media was used for full 20k m
Air filter- replaced OEM filter at 20,000 mi on engine with Napa Gold Prem.

Blackstone's comments:
"All wear looks good in the latest sample from your Honda, especially after 20,000 miles on the oil. Potassium and sodium were the only unusual findings. Potassium is the biggest concern since it often shows anti-freeze contamination. Silicon may show dirt getting past the air filter, or it could be from sealers if this engine has recently been opened for service. This could also be the source of the potassium as well. The TBN was mildly low at 1.7, so the oil doesn't have a lot of active additive left. Suggest resampling in 10,000 miles to monitor potassium."

Car was driven moderately, mostly highway by the wife. Was only driven spirited on the weekends by me. I'm not sure what to make of the high Silicon and Potassium as all appears normal upon a "general" inspection. After taking my sample, Oil (color appeared normal) and FF filter was changed, air filter and BP element was not changed. I will do a UOA as recommend in 10,000 miles.

Full report can be seen here

code:

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Sample Date 10/05 2/05 9/04 7/04

Mi On OIL 40,000 20,000 10,000 5,000

Mi On ENGINE 20,000 10,000 5,000 5,000

Aluminum 3 3 4 8

Chromium 1 1 0 1

Iron 16 9 5 15

Copper 9 5 3 20

Lead 1 2 1 3

Tin 1 1 1 4

Molybdenum 65 73 177 321

Nickel 0 0 0 0

Manganese 2 1 1 2

Silver 0 0 0 0

Titanium 0 0 0 0

Potassium 24 13 2 3

Boron 78 70 45 39

Silicon 22 9 12 71

Sodium 6 2 3 9

Calcium 2412 1857 2330 1819

Magnesium 12 1 5 6

Phosphorus 688 780 801 725

Zinc 873 903 965 866

Barium 0 0 0 3

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SUS Viscosity @ 210F: 62.1
Flashpoint: 380F
Fuel: Water: 0
Insolubles: 0.4%
TBN: 1.7

 

[The Critic]

I hope the Potassium is simply from Road Salt, which can be composed of Potassium Chloride I think.

The high Si shows that the bypass filter needs to be changed, as the bypass filter is supposed to filter out the larger "pieces" of dirt.

Mike

 

[Bill]

Razl,

I think you got two lines mixed up:

quote:

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Miles- Engine= 40,000 mi, Oil= 20,000 mi

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quote:

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Mi On OIL 40,000 20,000 10,000 5,000Mi
On ENGINE 20,000 10,000 5,000 5,000

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quote:

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I'm not sure what to make of the high Silicon

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22ppm Silicon in 20,000 miles?
I wouldn't say this is high Silicon for 20,000 miles, roughly over 1ppm of Silicon per 1000 miles, your air filter is doing fine, your Silicon appears high because you increased the OCI to 20,000 miles, if you had taken the oil sample at 10,000 miles, the Silicon would have been around 11ppm, not bad at all.
I do not know what to make of the Potassium count, could be what Michael wrote or since you are in Rhode Island, Ocean Sea side salt in the air?

I think you have a good thing going here, I would be happy with this analysis report,
Iron & Lead are very low for 20,000 miles,
you changed the oil filter (full flow) three times during this 20,000 mile interval, correct?
Which By-pass filter system did you install on your vehicle?


Michael,

Does a By-pass filter remove Silicon particles?
(as in part per million particles),
I do not think the By-pass will clean the oil of Silicon, plus this is not a bad Silicon count for 20,000 miles, I have read some here recommend changing the oil when the Silicon reaches 25 ppm.

 

[The Critic]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill:
Razl,

I think you got two lines mixed up:

quote:

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Miles- Engine= 40,000 mi, Oil= 20,000 mi

---

quote:

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Mi On OIL 40,000 20,000 10,000 5,000Mi
On ENGINE 20,000 10,000 5,000 5,000

---

quote:

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I'm not sure what to make of the high Silicon

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22ppm Silicon in 20,000 miles?
I wouldn't say this is high Silicon for 20,000 miles, roughly over 1ppm of Silicon per 1000 miles, your air filter is doing fine, your Silicon appears high because you increased the OCI to 20,000 miles, if you had taken the oil sample at 10,000 miles, the Silicon would have been around 11ppm, not bad at all.
I do not know what to make of the Potassium count, could be what Michael wrote or since you are in Rhode Island, Ocean Sea side salt in the air?

I think you have a good thing going here, I would be happy with this analysis report,
Iron & Lead are very low for 20,000 miles,
you changed the oil filter (full flow) three times during this 20,000 mile interval, correct?
Which By-pass filter system did you install on your vehicle?


Michael,

Does a By-pass filter remove Silicon particles?
(as in part per million particles),
I do not think the By-pass will clean the oil of Silicon, plus this is not a bad Silicon count for 20,000 miles, I have read some here recommend changing the oil when the Silicon reaches 25 ppm.

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Bill,
Bypass Filter will clean out the Si to an extent; take a look at this UOA where the engine had an intake leak yet the bypass cleaned up the Si:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000203

Mike

 

[theguru]

What is the recommend OCI? Whilst the results don't look bad, I would be concerned about running that distance whilst under warranty.

This car does a lot of miles!

 

[ekpolk]

A very interesting situation, and one which I believe calls out for a particle count, for several reasons. First, it will give you a good idea of how accurate the BP filter maker's filtration claims are. Second, it might give you some perspective on how safe Blackstone's recommendation of another 10k miles really is. The only thing about this situation that would make me uncomfortable would be now knowing how close to the end you really are. Third, the oil has thickened substantially. Not a problem necessarily, but in combination with the other things seen here and the miles, it seems clear that something's happening here.

We can be pretty sure from all our UOAs that TBN decline is not linear, and if your particles (in the wrong categories) are beginning to climb, you might be closer to a problem than 10k miles.

How do you have that Oilguard installed? I've considered one of those, but not seriously so far. My particle counts seem to bear out my feeling that I don't really need one in my vehicle, and my engine room is already pretty tight. Still haven't ruled it out, though...

Be prepared for the predictions of certain doom from the hardcore 3/3-ers!

 

[buster]

Wear metals are outstanding for 20k even with a bypass. Oil held up very well IMO considering the miles put on it. I'd take ** Labs advice and sample again at 10k miles to check potassium. For 20k miles, the oil held it's viscosity well. Solid 30wt.

 

[Pablo]

quote:

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The high Si

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Nope. Not high. Think 5 ppm in 2004 Honda in a 5000 miles on dino. Not high at all.

K does worry me, too. Obviously has been there all along (and increases with miles). Could indeed some be a form of road salt. Maybe, just maybe do all the modern tests for tiny coolant leaks. IF it is a leak - it certainly is not harming your bottom end!

Gotta love the report in general. I would love to see true oxidation numbers. A small silence from most syn haters.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:
Wear metals are outstanding for 20k even with a bypass. Oil held up very well IMO considering the miles put on it. I'd take ** Labs advice and sample again at 10k miles to check potassium. For 20k miles, the oil held it's viscosity well. Solid 30wt.

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Respectfully disagree as to viscosity. It did did not hold viscosity, it thickened substantially. This was a 0w-20 oil when it went into the engine.

 

[Razl]

Pablo, good to here my bottom end will OK. I understand what you mean.

Bill, yes I did reverse the OIL/ENGINE in the report. I was going to take the easy route and just link the report but didn't want to break the posting rules. Good catch!

I think you guys are right about the Silicon, consider the additional mileage. Here are some of the number again adjusted to:

WEAR PER 10,000 mi...

code:

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10/05 2/05 9/04 7/04

Aluminum 0.75 1.5 4 16

Iron 4 4.5 5 30

Copper 2.25 2.5 3 40

Lead 0.25 1 1 6

Tin 0.25 0.5 1 8

Molybdenum 16.25 36.5 177 642

Potassium 6 6.5 2 6

Boron 19.5 35 45 78

Silicon 5.5 4.5 12 142

Sodium 1.5 1 3 18

Calcium 603 928.5 2330 3638

Magnesium 3 0.5 5 12

Phosphorus 172 390 801 1450

Zinc 218.25 451.5 965 1732

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But as you guys pointed out, the K is puzzling. I hope it is road salt, not coolant

I did not change the OilGuard EPS-10 BP media because flow was 20oz/min at warm idle. New media was flowing 48oz/min, so I figured the slower flow would filter even better

Yes, the FF filter was changed 3X as indicated, with roughly 2/3 qt added as make-up and serve as an additive booster. I'm think the 2/3qt make-up interval is not enough of an additive "boost". I'm considering replacing 1 full qt per 5k mi intervals and changing the FF filter at 10k mi intervals.

Too late getting a particle count or oxidation numbers, sorry

 

[Pablo]

Is your new "wear"/10K chart correct?

Shouldn't K = 12 13 4 6

 

[Bill]

quote:

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Bill,
Bypass Filter will clean out the Si to an extent; take a look at this UOA where the engine had an intake leak yet the bypass cleaned up the Si:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000203

Mike

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Mike,

Thanks for posting this link, I am not convinced the By-pass removed the Silicon, the difference between the second analysis and the third analysis was 3 ppm of Silicon, was the By-pass set-up used for the second OCI?

If a By-pass removes Silicon, then I would say that is a negative against using them, I want my analysis to have true wear numbers.
In the link you provided Doug said that he believes By-pass filters will not mask wear elements, which is a GOOD thing...

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Razl:
{SNIP}I did not change the OilGuard EPS-10 BP media because flow was 20oz/min at warm idle. New media was flowing 48oz/min, so I figured the slower flow would filter even better

Yes, the FF filter was changed 3X as indicated, with roughly 2/3 qt added as make-up and serve as an additive booster. I'm think the 2/3qt make-up interval is not enough of an additive "boost". I'm considering replacing 1 full qt per 5k mi intervals and changing the FF filter at 10k mi intervals.

Too late getting a particle count or oxidation numbers, sorry

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OK, now you've really got my curiosity up. How are you determining the flow rates? Has flow rate changed in a linear manner, or dropped off quickly in recent months? Where is your return line routed back into the engine? You got any pictures of your setup?

 

[Razl]

EKPOLK, The BP returns to the oil cap as shown (full post here)

Flow was measured only twice. First, at the initial installation, using a fresh BP media. Then again, prior to sampling this latest UOA. I simply removed the BP adapter oil cap and put a stock cap in its place. From there, I can easily collect and measure flow with the return line cap adapter. I would dare guess the flow rate reduction was linear given this is still a young engine (sans sludge).

Bill, you may find my future follow-up post interesting. I also sent another UOA of this oil into Blackstone, but instead collected the oil that was in the BP filter housing (before the media). I figured this was where the oil would be the "dirtiest". I told Blackstone it was for my JD tractor, not to foil my experiment

I should get that report today or tomorrow.

[ October 25, 2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Razl ]

 

[buster]

quote:

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It did did not hold viscosity

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Dude, 20k miles it went up one grade. How is that substantial? Substantial is Amsoil going up one grade in 5k miles.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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It did did not hold viscosity

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Dude, 20k miles it went up one grade. How is that substantial? Substantial is Amsoil going up one grade in 5k miles.

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OK, OK, easy now, sorry if a came off as harsh. But if "substantial" is too strong a modifier to use in describing the vis change, then it's about as off target to say it held well, because, ummmm, it didn't. It went from a 20 wt well into the 30 wt range. To be perfectly clear, I don't believe that this is any threat at this point, as plenty of folks run 30 wt in these engines just fine. On the other hand, if you want a 20, and pay for one, it should stay there, and it's disappointing when it doesn't. Of course, I doubt Mobil engineers really meant for this oil to be used that long.

 

[ekpolk]

Razl: Nice install, well done!

 

[oilyriser]

Someone should make a 0w-10 oil for topping up, to help viscosity stay in grade. Whether to use it or not would depend on the rate at which it gets added. Going up one grade will reduce gas mileage by about 2%, which is about 7.7 gallons in 10,000 miles if you get 26 mpg.

 

[buster]

ekpolk you didn't come off harsh at all.

I think one grade up or down is fine, as do most labs and for 20k miles that is outstanding and rare! We've seen numerous other oils go into the 50wt range by then.

*According to one of the guy's at Mobil tech, they always have tested every version of M1 to 25k miles. Don't know if it's true, but that has been the benchmark they use.

 

[Razl]

quote:

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Originally posted by Razl:
Bill, you may find my future follow-up post interesting. I also sent another UOA of this oil into Blackstone, but instead collected the oil that was in the BP filter housing (before the media). I figured this was where the oil would be the "dirtiest". I told Blackstone it was for my JD tractor, not to foil my experiment

I should get that report today or tomorrow.

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OK, here is the report No significant difference