group3 oil and varnish
- Thread starter cathy
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I think varnish accumulation has more to do with poor PCV recycling/venting than using any specific base oil formula.
The oil might help, but I would imagine it's the upgraded additive pack normally present in higher cost oils that prevents/cleans the most varnish.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Move from Group 1 oils with all the polar molecules to Gr II in turbine oils has increase sludge and varnishing tendencies...GrIII less polar, more thermally stable may be a wash with GrII
This is interesting....no wonder my old cars looked spotless with 3 to 4K OCIs on Gr.1 oils.
Move from Group 1 oils with all the polar molecules to Gr II in turbine oils has increase sludge and varnishing tendencies...GrIII less polar, more thermally stable may be a wash with GrII
This is interesting....no wonder my old cars looked spotless with 3 to 4K OCIs on Gr.1 oils.
less traditional vii = less varnish
http://www.rccnow.com/documents/fluitec/...AM%20201007.pdf
Quote:
The shift from Group I to Group II and III oils has resulted in a significant change in formulation strategies due to the strong influence that base oil has on the type of additives used. Consequently these new generation oils degrade differently from the traditional formulated lubricants.
Instead of degradation occurring in relatively linear predictable fashion, many of the newer lubricants maintain higher oxidation stability for longer, but then fail very quickly. It is the failure of the lubricant that can lead to the formation of varnish deposit
Quote:
The shift from Group I to Group II and III oils has resulted in a significant change in formulation strategies due to the strong influence that base oil has on the type of additives used. Consequently these new generation oils degrade differently from the traditional formulated lubricants.
Instead of degradation occurring in relatively linear predictable fashion, many of the newer lubricants maintain higher oxidation stability for longer, but then fail very quickly. It is the failure of the lubricant that can lead to the formation of varnish deposit
Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://www.rccnow.com/documents/fluitec/...AM%20201007.pdf
Quote:
The shift from Group I to Group II and III oils has resulted in a significant change in formulation strategies due to the strong influence that base oil has on the type of additives used. Consequently these new generation oils degrade differently from the traditional formulated lubricants.
Instead of degradation occurring in relatively linear predictable fashion, many of the newer lubricants maintain higher oxidation stability for longer, but then fail very quickly. It is the failure of the lubricant that can lead to the formation of varnish deposit
Excellent article, thanks!
http://www.rccnow.com/documents/fluitec/...AM%20201007.pdf
Quote:
The shift from Group I to Group II and III oils has resulted in a significant change in formulation strategies due to the strong influence that base oil has on the type of additives used. Consequently these new generation oils degrade differently from the traditional formulated lubricants.
Instead of degradation occurring in relatively linear predictable fashion, many of the newer lubricants maintain higher oxidation stability for longer, but then fail very quickly. It is the failure of the lubricant that can lead to the formation of varnish deposit
Excellent article, thanks!
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Move from Group 1 oils with all the polar molecules to Gr II in turbine oils has increase sludge and varnishing tendencies...GrIII less polar, more thermally stable may be a wash with GrII
Ive heard that too, lots of users are hesitant to transition from very basic R&O lubes to something newer because of this and additive fallout issues.
One thing I read long ago was that Mobil retained some small Grp I basestock in their Delvac lines for cleaning and solubilization purposes.
Move from Group 1 oils with all the polar molecules to Gr II in turbine oils has increase sludge and varnishing tendencies...GrIII less polar, more thermally stable may be a wash with GrII
Ive heard that too, lots of users are hesitant to transition from very basic R&O lubes to something newer because of this and additive fallout issues.
One thing I read long ago was that Mobil retained some small Grp I basestock in their Delvac lines for cleaning and solubilization purposes.
Excellent article!
I wish I could see under my oil cap, but Toyota uses that stupid baffle in the 3MZ-FE. So I would have to pull the valve cover to actually see how it looks under there. I dont want to do that because it`s not leaking.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Move from Group 1 oils with all the polar molecules to Gr II in turbine oils has increase sludge and varnishing tendencies...GrIII less polar, more thermally stable may be a wash with GrII
Ive heard that too, lots of users are hesitant to transition from very basic R&O lubes to something newer because of this and additive fallout issues.
One thing I read long ago was that Mobil retained some small Grp I basestock in their Delvac lines for cleaning and solubilization purposes.
This would also be a good explanation for the small amount of G1 in RP oils.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Move from Group 1 oils with all the polar molecules to Gr II in turbine oils has increase sludge and varnishing tendencies...GrIII less polar, more thermally stable may be a wash with GrII
Ive heard that too, lots of users are hesitant to transition from very basic R&O lubes to something newer because of this and additive fallout issues.
One thing I read long ago was that Mobil retained some small Grp I basestock in their Delvac lines for cleaning and solubilization purposes.
This would also be a good explanation for the small amount of G1 in RP oils.
Shannon,
Good read, but failed to explain how higher group base oils have "the lowest natural oxidative stability" whatever that means. Do they simply mean solubility of oxidation products, or am I that dense?
Good read, but failed to explain how higher group base oils have "the lowest natural oxidative stability" whatever that means. Do they simply mean solubility of oxidation products, or am I that dense?
Better read would be the undergraduate thesis of one of my engineers at work on varnish production and removal...this is as explained to me by him. His thesis goes through the interim peroxides, and what not that mean once varnish has started, it continues.
Basically oil breakdown products are polar/non polar, and soluble or insolube. Solubility changes with temperature...see vid - varnish deposits aren't generally at the point that they are generated in the oil system, but they drop out where they become insoluble.
The varnish is polar, and in an oil with little to no polarity, solubility is minimal. Varnish particles agglomerate due to Van Der Wall's forces, and are broken up due to turbulence.
Being polar (like ester "cling") they are attracted to metal surfaces, particularly those that don't have a lot of turbulent "action" around them.
My take (not science) is that the comment regarding how poor GrIII was in an oxidation sense is that being more saturated, they are more oxidation resistant, but have less capability of keeping it in suspension...the article says that appropriately addititised, they are outstanding.
Basically oil breakdown products are polar/non polar, and soluble or insolube. Solubility changes with temperature...see vid - varnish deposits aren't generally at the point that they are generated in the oil system, but they drop out where they become insoluble.
The varnish is polar, and in an oil with little to no polarity, solubility is minimal. Varnish particles agglomerate due to Van Der Wall's forces, and are broken up due to turbulence.
Being polar (like ester "cling") they are attracted to metal surfaces, particularly those that don't have a lot of turbulent "action" around them.
My take (not science) is that the comment regarding how poor GrIII was in an oxidation sense is that being more saturated, they are more oxidation resistant, but have less capability of keeping it in suspension...the article says that appropriately addititised, they are outstanding.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
We've lived it down here...
With the loss of oil refining in country, the base-stocks became GrII, without industry knowledge (obviously the oil companies knew).
First we knew was sludge and varnish in susceptible units.
When was it? It sure brings the memories of the turn of the century when world didn't end but a number of car makers suffered from sludge: Toyota, Chrysler, Saab, VW, and BMW to name a few.
We've lived it down here...
With the loss of oil refining in country, the base-stocks became GrII, without industry knowledge (obviously the oil companies knew).
First we knew was sludge and varnish in susceptible units.
When was it? It sure brings the memories of the turn of the century when world didn't end but a number of car makers suffered from sludge: Toyota, Chrysler, Saab, VW, and BMW to name a few.
Over the last 4 years.
When you change the oil on a car, you do it all.
Steam turbines have 15-20,000 gals of lubricating oil, and they run it 85-90,000 hours...in general...there are leaks, and they need to be made up.
A couple of machines that I was familiar with never needed changing at all, as their normal consumption rate meant a 10% replenishment per 8,500 hours...however when these got to around the 50:50 mark of Gr I/II, we started seeing issues. Called the oil company, and was advised that "nothing had changed recently"...turned out it wasn't recent, but over a year ago, and as the GrI/II became a mix of polar GrI with it's add, and non polar GrII with it's ads, nothing really worked...the oil couldn't support either the oriiginal or the new addtive packs.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/641/turbine-oil-reclamation
Quote:
Another refortification problem manifests itself with base oil issues. Turbine oils formulated with API Group I base oils have different solvent characteristics than newer Group II base oils. The addition of the wrong type of additive to a used turbine oil might result in additive insolubility. These imbalances can result in additive dropout and/or the formation of reaction products, and can result in system deposits, varnish and filter-plugging problems, etc.
When you change the oil on a car, you do it all.
Steam turbines have 15-20,000 gals of lubricating oil, and they run it 85-90,000 hours...in general...there are leaks, and they need to be made up.
A couple of machines that I was familiar with never needed changing at all, as their normal consumption rate meant a 10% replenishment per 8,500 hours...however when these got to around the 50:50 mark of Gr I/II, we started seeing issues. Called the oil company, and was advised that "nothing had changed recently"...turned out it wasn't recent, but over a year ago, and as the GrI/II became a mix of polar GrI with it's add, and non polar GrII with it's ads, nothing really worked...the oil couldn't support either the oriiginal or the new addtive packs.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/641/turbine-oil-reclamation
Quote:
Another refortification problem manifests itself with base oil issues. Turbine oils formulated with API Group I base oils have different solvent characteristics than newer Group II base oils. The addition of the wrong type of additive to a used turbine oil might result in additive insolubility. These imbalances can result in additive dropout and/or the formation of reaction products, and can result in system deposits, varnish and filter-plugging problems, etc.
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