New Additive - Cermax!

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This is a additive that has supposedly been in development for a long time.

Cermax

There is also a video demo up on myspace. Everyone should be able to see it, I don't think you have to log in.

myspace video

It seems interesting. It definitely sticks like they claim. However a hot plate is no comparison to some kind of real world test. They have done real world testing but I haven't seen any other data or videos. I'm kind of skeptical. The stuff looked real goopey when he pours it. Thoughts from the "experts"???
 
Hasn't this stuff been around for a while under this name? I seem to recall it being in auto parts stores for some time.

Hate to rain on your parade.
 
First time I have heard of it and there was no mention of it on here when I searched for it. Are you thinking of Zmax?? I think this stuff is different. I'm not all crazy about this stuff either. Just thought it looked interesting and wanted to see what others thought of it.
 
I think there are a few posts on Cermax around. I swear I remember somebody else posting about it, although don't hold me to that.

EDIT: Yes, if you go back a page there's a post labeled "cermax test". It's approximately 1/3 of the way down the page.
 
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Cermax has been discussed here A LOT. The supposed inventor was on here around a year ago and didn't want to answer any questions and eventually got banned. Look for posts by Lonnie and Cermax and you will have some interesting reading.

Hot plates are not cars and demonstrations like this prove nothing. I would imagine that silicone might behave the same way and do you want to put that in your engine? Might even be what this stuff is.
 
I just had a row with someone on this topic.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=228837

He claims to know the inventor. "My engine runs smoother" and "the surface is harder to grind" just doesn't cut it for me. There are ways to scientifically characterize the effect of this product and the product itself to determine its efficacy. Our lab has all the tools to do such an analysis. This guy was rather religous about the product, so I decided not to escalate the matter.
 
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Our lab has all the tools to do such an analysis.


..can't you sneak in some time for a government project???
 
If I had a prepped sample I could squeeze it in. But a good reverse-engineering of the product would need the help of my colleague who runs the FTIR, and he's rather busy.

The prepped sample would need to be a small 2" section of cylinder wall that has seen treatment, to fit it in the scanning electron microscope, and a control sample from a similar cylinder for comparison. Providing and prepping samples are the hardest part of the investigation.

I would then take hardnesses on the surface of each sample. A cross section of each sample would be prepared to verify the claim of this product penetrating steel. (I expect to find no penetration. I know too much about how materials behave to buy into that statement.)

If the product is truly solids, I could pop that in the microscope rather easily.

Most of my 27-year career has been spent as an expert on powertrain materials and surfaces.

If Cermax1 had truly spent a lot of time and money on his invention, and was curious (as inventors should be), and serious about his product, he would have contracted a lab to do such an analysis to gain a basic undestanding of how the product works and possibly how to make it better. I wonder just what he did over the past number of years (and dollars) to "work on" his product, besides come up with vernacular used by snake oil salesmen, which is on the Cermax web site. Most successful inventions get the attention of the automotive industry and are presented in various professional publications. I have yet to see this product - that claims to do all these wonderful things for an engine - in any of the popular journals. The audience (and jury) is there and waiting.

I could present Cermax1 contact information for these publications if he wants to present his invention to the automotive and materials engineering audience. We are open minded.
 
I took my recommendation from Johnny-b from Norway who said that it cut down on oil consumption and stopped the car from smoking. Since I have a cheap Saturn, I don’t mind doing a few tests here or there. Saturns are notorious for their oil consumption, my 1.9 consumed qt every 1000k, now after about 10k miles my consumption is about qt every 5000k, same driving conditions. Don’t know if it did anything to the engine, could not tell from my UOA which is posted here.

Just began a second test on a second consumption Saturn, only time will tell. I did notice that my TBN is being punished on the 10k runs so I am lowering it down a bit and we’ll see. Both cars were post auto-rx treatment. Maybe some day I will save up the money and have Terry Dyson give me his professional interpretation, but in the mean time I’ll slowly continue my testing at my own expense. Had my cars not consumed any oil, I may have not even touched this product. There was a need on my side to test it, so I went ahead and made the plunge.

Non-scientific observations: yes my car has more power, and no I am not spending the money to put it on a DYNO. Consumption dropped, oil gets darker faster so either the substance is doing further cleaning or reacting with my oil.

Since there was no spike in wear metals in my last UOA sample, I will have to accumulate more data to make up my own conclusion.
 
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The prepped sample would need to be a small 2" section of cylinder wall that has seen treatment, to fit it in the scanning electron microscope, and a control sample from a similar cylinder for comparison. Providing and prepping samples are the hardest part of the investigation.


But would it have to be a cylinder wall? Couldn't a hunk of appropriate metal be ran through some appropriate process for embedding the material at some temp in oil solution ..perhaps under pressure from another like material (to provide the pressure)? Then a virgin control piece compared?

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If Cermax1 had truly spent a lot of time and money on his invention, and was curious (as inventors should be), and serious about his product, he would have contracted a lab to do such an analysis to gain a basic understanding of how the product works and possibly how to make it better.


While I certainly agree with you to a very high degree, I also have to consider something like Frank's operation. It's truly lower budget on comprehensive testing (as in something like the SWRI grade of testing) just due to lack of the massive capital required. Most of your snake oils came into being like Starbucks and many other emergent "nature's way of saying that you make too much money". Zmax, Prolong, Duralube all came out with massive infomercial campaigns that surely cost a bundle. This leads to figuring that the product itself is very cheap. So, you throw out a product ...market the heck out of it. The producers, marketers, and endorsement celebrities make a decent buck ..and you get a product that would never pay for itself in avoided costs. I imagine that these types of products are where you have a lower grade millionaire that roves around in such investment circles and has a regular association with people looking to multiply their money. It usually ends up being a game of leaving someone else holding the bag ..where they promise territories with the purchase of (something like) $250k of the product ..then the fine print requires them to do that every year or lose their franchise/territory rights ..so the producer can move on to the next mark.

..but the testing you're describing should not really cost all that much. You just need to buy two new Briggs and Straton engines from the same production date..run one with and one without. Same oil, same hours, same load...cut the cylinders up and test for hardness difference. Now it would cost a bit to have the metallurgical testers control the entire test ..but just having the liners tested shouldn't be all that bad (or so I imagine).
 
I would prefer some real-world material that has been put through its paces. That way there is no other variable to worry about.

If I was to quote for our lab, the testing I mentioned would be $3K to $5K, tops... full investigation and report, after samples are presented. Kinda cheap when you consider the information that can be gleaned from such a study and the amount of money already invested.
 
According to the vid in the first post, all you need is a $15 hot plate.
crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I would prefer some real-world material that has been put through its paces. That way there is no other variable to worry about.

If I was to quote for our lab, the testing I mentioned would be $3K to $5K, tops... full investigation and report, after samples are presented. Kinda cheap when you consider the information that can be gleaned from such a study and the amount of money already invested.


Not bad at all ..all things considered. In marketing, it's mixed bag. Those who see only testimonial type data ...want more scientific data. When only bona fide lab data is provided, then you get people who want testimonials since they can't integrate the data.

So, you end up with the carnival type side show demonstrations and whatnot (like the $15 hot plate).
 
I just had a chance to read the thread link. I would have put the smack down on that guy with your knowledge. He doesn't even say how he "knows cerma penetrates the metal".
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Tell him to put up or shut with some facts and documents.
 
Tempest, I'm not one to escalate an argument here on line, especially with someone not my peer (humbleness aside). I had my say up front where I laid out my knowledge. He started getting religious about the product. I don't talk about religion. I think readers - at least the intelligent ones - can see that the poster is a fool and there is nothing yet to substantiate the claim of Cermax's effectiveness.

The claim of penetration up to 0.012" really sticks in my craw though. With what I know about diffusion of metals, this is impossible.
 
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