Took the 3.5L Honda-powered Vue to the dealer....

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There was a link that showed this engine, and the sister engine in the Acura MDX, of how HP climbed with use of higher octane gas. IIRC, 91 octane is where the max HP curve topped out




No surprise there . The MDX is 'rated for' - 'recommends' " premium " the Vue is rated - recommends 87 - regular .

While you share most of the same basic engine architecture as the MDX , you do not share the exact same configuration and in this case those differences matter .

The only point here is it would be inaccurate to extrapolate from the MDX to the VUE in regards to best octane to use .

I don't doubt your butt dyno observations in the least - but they are due to some other factor or combination of factors and explanations rather than your observation concerning the MDX -ie that observation is just N/A - all but useless in regards to the VUE .

That said , and arbitarily limiting the side discussion but with all the information provided here on this specific application in this specific environment and with the specific historic and recent 'observations' in mind , the best technical comment here so far is G -Mans -

"balony"

Since we are really just shooting the breeze here without any real concern for accuracy , efficiency or the use of inuenendo and really a type of indirect 'slander' - here is another unsubstantiated post thats probably at least a little more 'accurate' .

Its a very fine powertrain with a well designed and more than reasonably robust fuel system .

Chevron is a Top Tier - tier 'one' fuel 'provider' with a more than adequate to better than most record - in regards to overall fuel quality - including delivered .

Saturn Dealers rate out well enough to excellent on service provision .

Ditto the all the above on the GM fuel products described here .

So heres the unsubstianted guess that I'd be working from .

The powertrain (Honda/Saturn) , the fuel(Chevron/local station - fuel delivery system) , the Saturn Dealer and their personal , and the GM fuel products all worked as advertised - did their job and in the case of the Saturn Dealer worth noting - did it honestly .

Gee , did I leave anything out ? YEP - more than some of you think, - given how some (late correction) of you shoot from the hip - w/o even getting your piece out of the holster.

Gee Auntie Em , does the owners manual mention anything about the indiscriminate use of fuel treatment products and how they feel about that and the likely outcome ?
(Careful , there are two main aspects to this - we are concerned here with just one . )



TS ,one thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here - given what you posted as your symptom list you should have had one to three lights 'come on' and definitely accumulated some codes worth talking about if possible .

If it were mine , amongst some other things , I'd start eliminating some of your operational variables .

BTW , so there is no possible confusion , if you have a legitimate as described butt dyno improvement with 93 vs 87 I'd stay with it unless and until something else changes that can then be 'verified' .

Also , have you 'trailed' anything between 87 -93 ?

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I'm glad that it seems your problem was corrected but.... Why would you expect fuel power to work when it was used only 25% of the time? Had it been in the tank (in the correct dosage) 100% of the time since fill up #1 that would be a legit gripe.

That's a bit like saying your 'fridge is only plugged in 25% of the time.....why did the food spoil?
 
Time out for Twix!

Even if he used NO FP since the car was new, there's no way I could see the injectors clogged in that short span of time on a 2004 car (unless it's been fed junk gas). Look how many cars are on the road that have no fuel treatment whatsoever and have no problems.

FP 25% of the time SHOULD have taken care of any fuel related problems, especially on a 3.5 year old car.
 
Whenever I see something like you describe, most of the time it turns out to be the fuel filter... just my observation.
 
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Oh the dreaded "You need an injector service" diagnosis from the dealer.
mad.gif
More than likely, something they jostled or cajoled during the process fixed this. There's no way you had 'dirty' injectors on a 2004, highly maintained vehicle.

Joel




Not quite. Burning 93 octane in a 87 rated engine can produce severe carbon buildup.





1) Completely untrue. 2) We are talking about the fuel rail and not the combustion chamber.

Joel
 
I gotta say the "bad gas"theory is the most plausible.It explains loss of power and the injector service fixing it.Keep some Regane or Techron in the trunk for such an occasion.
 
Quote:


Quote:




There was a link that showed this engine, and the sister engine in the Acura MDX, of how HP climbed with use of higher octane gas. IIRC, 91 octane is where the max HP curve topped out




No surprise there . The MDX is 'rated for' - 'recommends' " premium " the Vue is rated - recommends 87 - regular .

While you share most of the same basic engine architecture as the MDX , you do not share the exact same configuration and in this case those differences matter .

The only point here is it would be inaccurate to extrapolate from the MDX to the VUE in regards to best octane to use .

I don't doubt your butt dyno observations in the least - but they are due to some other factor or combination of factors and explanations rather than your observation concerning the MDX -ie that observation is just N/A - all but useless in regards to the VUE .

That said , and arbitarily limiting the side discussion but with all the information provided here on this specific application in this specific environment and with the specific historic and recent 'observations' in mind , the best technical comment here so far is G -Mans -

"balony"

Since we are really just shooting the breeze here without any real concern for accuracy , efficiency or the use of inuenendo and really a type of indirect 'slander' - here is another unsubstantiated post thats probably at least a little more 'accurate' .

Its a very fine powertrain with a well designed and more than reasonably robust fuel system .

Chevron is a Top Tier - tier 'one' fuel 'provider' with a more than adequate to better than most record - in regards to overall fuel quality - including delivered .

Saturn Dealers rate out well enough to excellent on service provision .

Ditto the all the above on the GM fuel products described here .

So heres the unsubstianted guess that I'd be working from .

The powertrain (Honda/Saturn) , the fuel(Chevron/local station - fuel delivery system) , the Saturn Dealer and their personal , and the GM fuel products all worked as advertised - did their job and in the case of the Saturn Dealer worth noting - did it honestly .

Gee , did I leave anything out ? YEP - more than some of you think, - given how some (late correction) of you shoot from the hip - w/o even getting your piece out of the holster.

Gee Auntie Em , does the owners manual mention anything about the indiscriminate use of fuel treatment products and how they feel about that and the likely outcome ?
(Careful , there are two main aspects to this - we are concerned here with just one . )



TS ,one thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here - given what you posted as your symptom list you should have had one to three lights 'come on' and definitely accumulated some codes worth talking about if possible .

If it were mine , amongst some other things , I'd start eliminating some of your operational variables .

BTW , so there is no possible confusion , if you have a legitimate as described butt dyno improvement with 93 vs 87 I'd stay with it unless and until something else changes that can then be 'verified' .

Also , have you 'trailed' anything between 87 -93 ?

twocents.gif





yawn.gif
yawn.gif
 
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Burning 93 octane in a 87 rated engine can produce severe carbon buildup.




Baloney.




Yes... Baloney.

IMHO if an automotive engine is being operated with retarded ignition timing due to the knock sensor detecting spark knock there will be a loss of efficiency and less complete combustion.
Possibly more deposits and emissions due to the efficiency loss.

Less complete combustion...how? you might ask?

Less ignition timing advance = less time for fuel to complete it's burn before the exhaust valve opens.
And premium or regular doesn't equate to rate of burn. It does relate to detonation and pre-ignition resistance.

I have seen a consistent loss (according to my instant mileage indicator) of gas mileage with regular gas.

This occurs on long uphill pulls.

And this part is repeatable... There is a particular long hill that I drive over daily where with cruise set on 70 the transmission will always shift out of OD with regular and never with 93. When this occurs the tachometer reading increases to 2100 RPM from 1600 RPM.
I believe that this is caused by lost efficiency under those conditions making it necessary for the cruise control to ask for more throttle forcing a converter unlock.
At the point that this occurs the instant MPG readout will fall from 21 MPG to 14 MPG.

Now to be fair I can find no MPG difference on level or downhill grades with regular VS: premium.

And for those that maintain that premium offers no advantage in a regular specified engine: Why do those engines have knock sensors?
IE: If there were no spark knock problems with regular fuel specified engines while burning regular fuel... Knock sensors would be unnecessary right?

Does premium save me any money in overall fuel costs?
probably not...unless it's on sale.
Does it reduce mechanical wear and tear on my driven train? I believe that the answer is yes.
Does premium provide increased performance in my regular fuel specified vehicles?
Yes! There is definitely improved tip in throttle response,and lug-ability with premium.

I think that there is a lot of parroted dribble on the internet and elsewhere regarding octane, and I for one will continue to treat it as such.
smile.gif



Rickey
 
"And for those that maintain that premium offers no advantage in a regular specified engine: Why do those engines have knock sensors?
IE: If there were no spark knock problems with regular fuel specified engines while burning regular fuel... Knock sensors would be unnecessary right?"

- Not to nitpick, but knock sensors help if there is 'bad gas/water in gas', if your MAF sensor goes bad, if an oxygen sensor goes bad, etc... Let's you know which bank of the engine is running lean.


93 still isn't always better. My g/f has an Eclipse with the 2.4 sohc and it runs much better with 87 octane than 93. Those cars are kind of known to run rich, but still, it is a car that actually runs BETTER... has more POWER with 87 than 93.
 
Update: so far, i can't hear any pinging the few times I've driven the car since the incident occurred. Only have used Kroger el-cheapo 87 octane gas, no FP+.

Next tank is Kroger 93 octane.

Why Kroger gas? It's the cheapest in town. It's also the busiest gas station as you could imagine.
 
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Oh the dreaded "You need an injector service" diagnosis from the dealer.
mad.gif
More than likely, something they jostled or cajoled during the process fixed this. There's no way you had 'dirty' injectors on a 2004, highly maintained vehicle.

Joel




Not quite. Burning 93 octane in a 87 rated engine can produce severe carbon buildup.




Not to mention it can cause your Cat to fail pretty bad... Escorts ZX2 really don't like Premium fuel at all as it burns more slowly then Regular and the VCT Cam sends Burning air\fuel mixture right thru the cat causing it to melt... (Personal experience...)

As of the injector cleaner correcting a slipping transmission issue, as bizzare as it sounds, it's true! A friend experienced transmission slippage in his 1995 Pontiac Transport! After the garage cleaned his injectors with a bottle of Red Line stuff, the slippeage magically disseapeared... I still don't understand why... Maybe the poor running engine cause the transmission PCM to go crazy or something..??
 
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