0W-20 in a BMW M-60

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Higher NOACK is correlated with increased high-temperature deposits.

If I said lower, it was a typo. I meant lower MRV/CCS results in higher NOACK.


No it isn't. Not in my data either

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
you are making this interesting now... can you show some proof or UOAs where PMA containing xW-20/30 oils have sheared more than the older VM technology oils ?

Otherwise why on are PMAs the more costly VM today ?


PMAs give FE benefits but require much higher treat rates, they also don't perform that well in high temperature oxidation tests.

No data I can share, but PMAs high treat rate and high SSI is the reason for shear, hence they only really get used in low visc 0W-20 / 0W-30s. Anything higher will need a combination of VMs if you want PMA in there.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: fpracha
you are making this interesting now... can you show some proof or UOAs where PMA containing xW-20/30 oils have sheared more than the older VM technology oils ?

Otherwise why on are PMAs the more costly VM today ?


PMAs give FE benefits but require much higher treat rates, they also don't perform that well in high temperature oxidation tests.

No data I can share, but PMAs high treat rate and high SSI is the reason for shear, hence they only really get used in low visc 0W-20 / 0W-30s. Anything higher will need a combination of VMs if you want PMA in there.

Once again bobbydavro is 100% wrong.
The very high VI polymethacrylates (PMA) polymers used to formulate the ultra high VI 0W-20 oils such as TGMO, MGMO and Sustina actually use a lower treat rate than the typical copolymers that are more commomly used in most lower VI motor oils.

Infineum calls their new PMA polymer "SV Star" for it's star-like molecular structure.
Lubrizol calls their new start-like PMA "Asteric".
Evonik also have a very high VI PMA.

The new PMA polymer technology was discussed in the following thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3063326/1

 

[bobbydavro]

Right. So why do you need 2.5% solids with a PMA verses 1% of more common VM technology to make a 5W-30. Ignore total treat as this includes diluent oil.

By the way. Asteric VMs are used in transmission, they don't go near crankcase lubes. A load of information is in that thread which is just guessed. High VI has no meaning in terms of shear performance

How long have insurance consultants been developing oil ?

 

[CATERHAM]

High VI PMAs are used to formulate transmission fluids and motor oils, specifically the OEM 0W-20s which I referenced.

I suggest you get your facts straight before you post.

 

[bobbydavro]

Not all PMAs are the same. Honestly you are making yourself look silly now.

Lubrizol use other technologies in crankcase oils that I'm not at liberty to share on a forum, if you read the asteric website it is quite clearly a PMA for hydraulic and transmission applications. Here's a nugget for free. Evoniks comb polymer is what's in TGMO

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not all PMAs are the same. Honestly you are making yourself look silly now.

Lubrizol use other technologies in crankcase oils that I'm not at liberty to share on a forum, if you read the asteric website it is quite clearly a PMA for hydraulic and transmission applications. Here's a nugget for free. Evoniks comb polymer is what's in TGMO

Condescending and insulting.

Why should we take your word for "Evoniks comb polymer" in the propriety formulation of TGMO 0W-20 SN/GF-5 by ExxonMobil, which is only known internally? Do you even work for ExxonMobil? Chances are that you have no idea what's in ExxonMobil TGMO 0W-20 SN/GF-5. If you can't prove something like this, don't even bother to post it. Don't also even bother to reply with another condescending answer.

 

[bobbydavro]

I develop engine oils for a living and every additive company shares their technology and information with me. I have a good oversight of the industry and thought you guys here would appreciate some information beyond VOAs

If you don't want to learn new things the that is fine. But to claim I am wrong is a bit short sighted. To be honest I have no intention to share information to prove myself right as that would be giving away information we have spent a lot of money on learning.

Please don't think you can tell everything from a few spec sheets though.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not all PMAs are the same. Honestly you are making yourself look silly now.

Lubrizol use other technologies in crankcase oils that I'm not at liberty to share on a forum, if you read the asteric website it is quite clearly a PMA for hydraulic and transmission applications. Here's a nugget for free. Evoniks comb polymer is what's in TGMO

Condescending and insulting.

Why should we take your word for "Evoniks comb polymer" in the propriety formulation of TGMO 0W-20 SN/GF-5 by ExxonMobil, which is only known internally? Do you even work for ExxonMobil? Chances are that you have no idea what's in ExxonMobil TGMO 0W-20 SN/GF-5. If you can't prove something like this, don't even bother to post it. Don't also even bother to reply with another condescending answer.


Sounded more grounded and plausible than the other (made up) stuff about this oil that we know more about than any other...but almost no facts.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Please don't think you can tell everything from a few spec sheets though.

 

[Coprolite]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20.

Ignore the effect of Viscosity modifiers, think about the actual base oil viscosity


I'm still waiting on an explanation how 0w-40 is thinner than 5w-20.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20.

Ignore the effect of Viscosity modifiers, think about the actual base oil viscosity


I'm still waiting on an explanation how 0w-40 is thinner than 5w-20.


Broad brush statment there by me I admit - it was more targetted at the comment i was responding to, but the base oil viscosity of a 0W-40 can be lower then a 5W-20. Base oil viscosity can be the critical parameter of the oil in terms of its film forming ability, the additive and VI provide a thickening effect for a Kv100 measurement which sometimes isnt replicated in high pressure regions.

 

[Coprolite]

Thanks bobbydavro.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Higher NOACK is correlated with increased high-temperature deposits.
I meant lower MRV/CCS results in higher NOACK.
No it isn't. Not in my data either...
0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20. Ignore the effect of Viscosity modifiers, think about the actual base oil viscosity
I'm still waiting on an explanation how 0w-40 is thinner than 5w-20.
...the base oil viscosity of a 0W-40 can be lower then a 5W-20. Base oil viscosity can be the critical parameter of the oil in terms of its film forming ability, the additive and VI provide a thickening effect for a Kv100 measurement which sometimes isnt replicated in high pressure regions.

So you have tested oils with higher "finished operating oil viscosity" at say 80C , but when in actual use at the loading contact points (bearings, etc.) the oil will definitely only provide as much as the "base oils' viscosity" without any influence from the VMs and other additives in the finished oil ?
Does this logic hold true equally for hot temperatures and cold temperatures ?
what happens when due to higher NOACK% the lighter base oil evaporates, is the oil film now "Heavier" during the actual operating conditions at the loading points ?

 

[anupam1097]

Hey,

I was doing a research study on lube oil additives. I found PMA to be the most widely used additive especially in Japan. However, I got mixed results in Europe. Wanted to understand if OCP or Polybutene is most widely used there?

Also Voklswagen guys, said they do not recommend PMA at all for their vehicles, but did not comment of the type of additive they use. Does anyone have any idea what type of additive they use for factory fill?