OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Here's my old Expie towing a similar trailer with a 3,500lb Mustang on it:
3-row towing vehicle
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Originally Posted By: edhackett
I pulled that exact same load yesterday with a 2014 Ram 1500, no weight distributing hitch, and had no excessive sag. It might have dropped the back end 2" at most. It was a 2695 lb. 16' tilt trailer and most of a John Deere B, totaling right at 5000 lbs., maybe a bit more. All the weight was from the rear trailer axel forward. I don't know the exact tongue weight, but it towed beautifully, even to a brief 70 mph.
I'd say that trailer is improperly loaded or the bed is full of stuff we can't see.
Ed
Loading could indeed be a factor, but apparently, there are also very significant differences between that '09 & a similarly configured '14 -- that account for a nearly 3,000lb. difference in tow rating.
2009: http://www.dodge.com/bodybuilder/2009/docs/dr/mlup1500.pdf
2014: http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2014/docs/ram/rammlup1500.pdf
I pulled that exact same load yesterday with a 2014 Ram 1500, no weight distributing hitch, and had no excessive sag. It might have dropped the back end 2" at most. It was a 2695 lb. 16' tilt trailer and most of a John Deere B, totaling right at 5000 lbs., maybe a bit more. All the weight was from the rear trailer axel forward. I don't know the exact tongue weight, but it towed beautifully, even to a brief 70 mph.
I'd say that trailer is improperly loaded or the bed is full of stuff we can't see.
Ed
Loading could indeed be a factor, but apparently, there are also very significant differences between that '09 & a similarly configured '14 -- that account for a nearly 3,000lb. difference in tow rating.
2009: http://www.dodge.com/bodybuilder/2009/docs/dr/mlup1500.pdf
2014: http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2014/docs/ram/rammlup1500.pdf
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
I mentioned the Roadmaster wagon because I have a customer that tows a 6000+# TT with his. Though modified....383 stroker LT1, 4L80E, 9.5" diff w/ 12" drums & rear springs out of a Fleetwood Hearse, Air bags, Baer front brakes, Oversized sway bars, W-D hitch, & Prodigy brake controller.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Even without those upgrades, weren't they rated for 7500? Bet it tows nicely with the upgrades.
I doubt they are rated that high?, The owner of the car is a referrel by my Machine shop that built his 383, He had burnt down several 4L60E's towing a smaller TT. I built & installed the 4L80E, With a EFI Connection Kit to covert to a LSX operating system, '01 2500HD 6.0L/4L80E PCM (custom tuned to the LTX engine), Coil packs, Custom BP Automotive engine harness.
I bought a wreaked 28,000 mile 1996 Cadillac "Superior Coach" Hearse a couple years prior to salvage the LT1 for a Jaguar XJ-S project & saved the 9.5" differential & springs that went into his car.
I mentioned the Roadmaster wagon because I have a customer that tows a 6000+# TT with his. Though modified....383 stroker LT1, 4L80E, 9.5" diff w/ 12" drums & rear springs out of a Fleetwood Hearse, Air bags, Baer front brakes, Oversized sway bars, W-D hitch, & Prodigy brake controller.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Even without those upgrades, weren't they rated for 7500? Bet it tows nicely with the upgrades.
I doubt they are rated that high?, The owner of the car is a referrel by my Machine shop that built his 383, He had burnt down several 4L60E's towing a smaller TT. I built & installed the 4L80E, With a EFI Connection Kit to covert to a LSX operating system, '01 2500HD 6.0L/4L80E PCM (custom tuned to the LTX engine), Coil packs, Custom BP Automotive engine harness.
I bought a wreaked 28,000 mile 1996 Cadillac "Superior Coach" Hearse a couple years prior to salvage the LT1 for a Jaguar XJ-S project & saved the 9.5" differential & springs that went into his car.
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Originally Posted By: meep
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Good information in those links, although I didn't find anything that explains the effects of an anti sway damper and the required tongue weight for stability.
Many of the UK caravanning sites say to add one if needed of course, which is more often is I assume, given that they run lower tongue weights.
Anyways, probably if we ever get a 4000lb trailer, and have something like a Pathfinder with a silly low payload, I'll run the tongue weight heavy enough to avoid sway problems, keep my speeds reasonable (65 and under) and not worry about going slightly over the payload ratings the odd time.
Also, as far as I can tell the highway traffic act in ontario doesn't seem to even mention manufacturer ratings on personal vehicles, just trailer weights(over 3200lbs needs brakes) and combined vehicle and trailer weights(over 10k lbs needs a yearly inspection ). If anyone can find something different I'd love to see it.
I have towed with an older pathfinder and it was just not a good tow vehicle. Any vehicle that rides luxuriously on a daily basis is sprung too soft for towing. I had an older pathfinder-- rated for 5000 lbs but put 2500-3000 behind it and it was white-knuckle. The vehicle rode too soft for its height and more importantly, had too short a wheelbase. Conversely, the same trailer behind a chrysler minivan rated for 2500 was a far, far better, experience. The van chassis was actually good for 3500 in all fairness but was de-rated with the smaller engine. It still did fine. the van had shorter rubber and leaf springs on the rear. It may be a short-sighted way to look at it, but in my experience, if it has coil springs in the back, it's not going to work well, at least without weight-distributing hitch.
I pay little heed to engine size. it's ok to slow on hills. Towing needs to be out of OD anyway to keep AT temps down. It's about stability and braking. I'd bet he could put a WDH on his current vehicle with steering stabilizer and be much better off than any pathfinder or midsize suv.
Good tow vehicles OTOH do not make as comfortable of an experience as a DD.
How fast did you go? I've actually towed similar weights with my old Tracker up to 60mph and it was always quite stable handling wise, I could give the trailer a good wiggle and it always wanted to quit by itself. I probably had 15-20%+ on the tongue though as often the rear was sagging quite a bit, but with a solid rear axle and 1600lbs of extra tire load rating, it seemed fine. The rear bumpstops were used a few times but they seemed pretty progressive and I suppose the tall sidewalls helped too.
I was hauling 2 800-1000lb round bales on a 6x12 landscape trailer so the setup didn't look too ridiculous and the police never gave me a second look.
Anyways, I was doing something dumb as smartly as I could, and if you follow the speed limits, look ahead, and pay attention, it gets pretty hard to have an at-fault accident driving in the country IMO.
The newer pathfinders have a tendency to sag in the back even without a trailer, but a lot of guys who tow with them, use airbags which is a cheap solution to get a vehicle to tow to well within its ratings and run enough tongue weight for good stability, and then deflate them to go off-road.
The 05-14 Xterra's have the same drivetrain as the 05-12 V6 Pathfinder but have a 5k tow rating instead of 6k or 7k(V8), so the shorter wheelbase is a limiting factor for it atleast.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Good information in those links, although I didn't find anything that explains the effects of an anti sway damper and the required tongue weight for stability.
Many of the UK caravanning sites say to add one if needed of course, which is more often is I assume, given that they run lower tongue weights.
Anyways, probably if we ever get a 4000lb trailer, and have something like a Pathfinder with a silly low payload, I'll run the tongue weight heavy enough to avoid sway problems, keep my speeds reasonable (65 and under) and not worry about going slightly over the payload ratings the odd time.
Also, as far as I can tell the highway traffic act in ontario doesn't seem to even mention manufacturer ratings on personal vehicles, just trailer weights(over 3200lbs needs brakes) and combined vehicle and trailer weights(over 10k lbs needs a yearly inspection ). If anyone can find something different I'd love to see it.
I have towed with an older pathfinder and it was just not a good tow vehicle. Any vehicle that rides luxuriously on a daily basis is sprung too soft for towing. I had an older pathfinder-- rated for 5000 lbs but put 2500-3000 behind it and it was white-knuckle. The vehicle rode too soft for its height and more importantly, had too short a wheelbase. Conversely, the same trailer behind a chrysler minivan rated for 2500 was a far, far better, experience. The van chassis was actually good for 3500 in all fairness but was de-rated with the smaller engine. It still did fine. the van had shorter rubber and leaf springs on the rear. It may be a short-sighted way to look at it, but in my experience, if it has coil springs in the back, it's not going to work well, at least without weight-distributing hitch.
I pay little heed to engine size. it's ok to slow on hills. Towing needs to be out of OD anyway to keep AT temps down. It's about stability and braking. I'd bet he could put a WDH on his current vehicle with steering stabilizer and be much better off than any pathfinder or midsize suv.
Good tow vehicles OTOH do not make as comfortable of an experience as a DD.
How fast did you go? I've actually towed similar weights with my old Tracker up to 60mph and it was always quite stable handling wise, I could give the trailer a good wiggle and it always wanted to quit by itself. I probably had 15-20%+ on the tongue though as often the rear was sagging quite a bit, but with a solid rear axle and 1600lbs of extra tire load rating, it seemed fine. The rear bumpstops were used a few times but they seemed pretty progressive and I suppose the tall sidewalls helped too.
I was hauling 2 800-1000lb round bales on a 6x12 landscape trailer so the setup didn't look too ridiculous and the police never gave me a second look.
Anyways, I was doing something dumb as smartly as I could, and if you follow the speed limits, look ahead, and pay attention, it gets pretty hard to have an at-fault accident driving in the country IMO.
The newer pathfinders have a tendency to sag in the back even without a trailer, but a lot of guys who tow with them, use airbags which is a cheap solution to get a vehicle to tow to well within its ratings and run enough tongue weight for good stability, and then deflate them to go off-road.
The 05-14 Xterra's have the same drivetrain as the 05-12 V6 Pathfinder but have a 5k tow rating instead of 6k or 7k(V8), so the shorter wheelbase is a limiting factor for it atleast.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Here's my old Expie towing a similar trailer with a 3,500lb Mustang on it:
This picture actually shows too much weight on the rear axle-and not enough on the steering axle. A very unsafe condition, especially in an emergency situation.
Here's my old Expie towing a similar trailer with a 3,500lb Mustang on it:
This picture actually shows too much weight on the rear axle-and not enough on the steering axle. A very unsafe condition, especially in an emergency situation.
The main thing people forget is that the "towing capacity" is figured with no passengers or cargo in the tow vehicle. People seem to forget that people count as payload. By the time you fill up those 3 rows of seats in most SUVs, you've already hit the payload capacity. This means you have zero towing capacity because you have no more payload capacity to carry the tongue weight of the trailer. The only way you'll fill up 3 rows of seats and still have capacity for a 6,000 pound trailer is with a 2500 Suburban, Excursion, or 3/4 or 1 ton van.
You don't need a "big" truck to pull a 5000-6000 pound trailer, but you do if you want to pull that trailer AND haul a bunch of people at the same time.
You don't need a "big" truck to pull a 5000-6000 pound trailer, but you do if you want to pull that trailer AND haul a bunch of people at the same time.
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E 150 Club Or what ever the passenger versions are called. Dodge , GM full size vans. Big V8 or small diesel depending. Looking for a long wheel base and big brakes. A previous post mentioned a final edition Roadmaster wagon with a heavy duty rear axle , suspension and brakes. Gussied up big bore, SBC for an engine.
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
The main thing people forget is that the "towing capacity" is figured with no passengers or cargo in the tow vehicle. People seem to forget that people count as payload. By the time you fill up those 3 rows of seats in most SUVs, you've already hit the payload capacity. This means you have zero towing capacity because you have no more payload capacity to carry the tongue weight of the trailer. The only way you'll fill up 3 rows of seats and still have capacity for a 6,000 pound trailer is with a 2500 Suburban, Excursion, or 3/4 or 1 ton van.
You don't need a "big" truck to pull a 5000-6000 pound trailer, but you do if you want to pull that trailer AND haul a bunch of people at the same time.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Do you notice how manufacturers always tout TOWING CAPACITY and never mention payload?
The main thing people forget is that the "towing capacity" is figured with no passengers or cargo in the tow vehicle. People seem to forget that people count as payload. By the time you fill up those 3 rows of seats in most SUVs, you've already hit the payload capacity. This means you have zero towing capacity because you have no more payload capacity to carry the tongue weight of the trailer. The only way you'll fill up 3 rows of seats and still have capacity for a 6,000 pound trailer is with a 2500 Suburban, Excursion, or 3/4 or 1 ton van.
You don't need a "big" truck to pull a 5000-6000 pound trailer, but you do if you want to pull that trailer AND haul a bunch of people at the same time.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Do you notice how manufacturers always tout TOWING CAPACITY and never mention payload?
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
The main thing people forget is that the "towing capacity" is figured with no passengers or cargo in the tow vehicle. People seem to forget that people count as payload. By the time you fill up those 3 rows of seats in most SUVs, you've already hit the payload capacity. This means you have zero towing capacity because you have no more payload capacity to carry the tongue weight of the trailer. The only way you'll fill up 3 rows of seats and still have capacity for a 6,000 pound trailer is with a 2500 Suburban, Excursion, or 3/4 or 1 ton van.
You don't need a "big" truck to pull a 5000-6000 pound trailer, but you do if you want to pull that trailer AND haul a bunch of people at the same time.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Do you notice how manufacturers always tout TOWING CAPACITY and never mention payload?
For an example of how a 3/4-ton Suburban would do with a similar load, here's mine. Weight-carrying hitch with no suspension modifications. IIRC, the leaf-spring setup on this is rated 40% higher than the 5-link on a comparable 1500.
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
The main thing people forget is that the "towing capacity" is figured with no passengers or cargo in the tow vehicle. People seem to forget that people count as payload. By the time you fill up those 3 rows of seats in most SUVs, you've already hit the payload capacity. This means you have zero towing capacity because you have no more payload capacity to carry the tongue weight of the trailer. The only way you'll fill up 3 rows of seats and still have capacity for a 6,000 pound trailer is with a 2500 Suburban, Excursion, or 3/4 or 1 ton van.
You don't need a "big" truck to pull a 5000-6000 pound trailer, but you do if you want to pull that trailer AND haul a bunch of people at the same time.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Do you notice how manufacturers always tout TOWING CAPACITY and never mention payload?
For an example of how a 3/4-ton Suburban would do with a similar load, here's mine. Weight-carrying hitch with no suspension modifications. IIRC, the leaf-spring setup on this is rated 40% higher than the 5-link on a comparable 1500.
How often does he tow?
It seems like renting a u haul / full size pick up whenever he needs to tow and keep a minivan whenever he doesn't would be the perfect situation here.
Or fork out enough to buy a GL.
It seems like renting a u haul / full size pick up whenever he needs to tow and keep a minivan whenever he doesn't would be the perfect situation here.
Or fork out enough to buy a GL.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Here's my old Expie towing a similar trailer with a 3,500lb Mustang on it:
This picture actually shows too much weight on the rear axle-and not enough on the steering axle. A very unsafe condition, especially in an emergency situation.
Yeah, the hitch was too low for the trailer and I also had an engine in the hatch of the truck (to replace the one in the car). So it was a bit "off" from where it should have been.
That hitch works fine for boat trailers and normal U-haul trailers, it is the car haulers that are setup funny and need a higher hitch.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Here's my old Expie towing a similar trailer with a 3,500lb Mustang on it:
This picture actually shows too much weight on the rear axle-and not enough on the steering axle. A very unsafe condition, especially in an emergency situation.
Yeah, the hitch was too low for the trailer and I also had an engine in the hatch of the truck (to replace the one in the car). So it was a bit "off" from where it should have been.
That hitch works fine for boat trailers and normal U-haul trailers, it is the car haulers that are setup funny and need a higher hitch.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
How often does he tow?
It seems like renting a u haul / full size pick up whenever he needs to tow and keep a minivan whenever he doesn't would be the perfect situation here.
Or fork out enough to buy a GL.
I know the big car rental agencies typically do not equip their half-ton rental trucks with tow packages. Maybe U-Haul is different.
How often does he tow?
It seems like renting a u haul / full size pick up whenever he needs to tow and keep a minivan whenever he doesn't would be the perfect situation here.
Or fork out enough to buy a GL.
I know the big car rental agencies typically do not equip their half-ton rental trucks with tow packages. Maybe U-Haul is different.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
From what I gather, The OP's buddy has already towed this TT with a midsized FWD SUV?
A '96 Roadmaster station wagon would be a step up from that! A 1500 Suburban would be perfect.
I mentioned the Roadmaster wagon because I have a customer that tows a 6000+# TT with his. Though modified....383 stroker LT1, 4L80E, 9.5" diff w/ 12" drums & rear springs out of a Fleetwood Hearse, Air bags, Baer front brakes, Oversized sway bars, W-D hitch, & Prodigy brake controller.
A completely stock Roadmaster with the tow package can haul 7000 lbs. with air suspension turned off, 35psi+ in the rear tires, and a weight distribution hitch.
His setup sounds absolutely delicious, however.
From what I gather, The OP's buddy has already towed this TT with a midsized FWD SUV?
A '96 Roadmaster station wagon would be a step up from that! A 1500 Suburban would be perfect.
I mentioned the Roadmaster wagon because I have a customer that tows a 6000+# TT with his. Though modified....383 stroker LT1, 4L80E, 9.5" diff w/ 12" drums & rear springs out of a Fleetwood Hearse, Air bags, Baer front brakes, Oversized sway bars, W-D hitch, & Prodigy brake controller.
A completely stock Roadmaster with the tow package can haul 7000 lbs. with air suspension turned off, 35psi+ in the rear tires, and a weight distribution hitch.
His setup sounds absolutely delicious, however.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
How often does he tow?
It seems like renting a u haul / full size pick up whenever he needs to tow and keep a minivan whenever he doesn't would be the perfect situation here.
Or fork out enough to buy a GL.
Uhaul would destroy him on the mileage charges. A better option would be to rent a Suburban from one of the passenger car rental chains.
How often does he tow?
It seems like renting a u haul / full size pick up whenever he needs to tow and keep a minivan whenever he doesn't would be the perfect situation here.
Or fork out enough to buy a GL.
Uhaul would destroy him on the mileage charges. A better option would be to rent a Suburban from one of the passenger car rental chains.
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