HTHSv and xw30 vs xw40 choice

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.


The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.

Of course it is not. Do you think average driver of VW Jetta 1.8TSI knows difference between Mobil1 5W30 and let's say Redline 5W30?
Be serious man.


Question is: Do you think the average european driver knows?

Does VW recommend xw-30 oil in Europe?
Do they have energy conserving (low HTHS) in Europe?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.


The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.

Of course it is not. Do you think average driver of VW Jetta 1.8TSI knows difference between Mobil1 5W30 and let's say Redline 5W30?
Be serious man.


Question is: Do you think the average european driver knows?

Does VW recommend xw-30 oil in Europe?
Do they have energy conserving (low HTHS) in Europe?

Most of the oils you can buy in Europe are ACEA A3/B4 A4 or Low-SAPS oils.
Energy conserving oils started to come on the market in last 10 years, but not as nearly popular as Euro oils.
And yes, average European driver is much more familiar with car they own then American driver. Someone said on this forum recently: For Americans cars are appliances, for Europeans, well they are cars.

 

[chrisri]

No European car manufacturer specify SAE grade or ACEA spec. All they spec is oil that have approvals for engine in question. Yes, some of this specific approvals would overlap with basic ACEA spec, and some would be concentrated to only one SAE viscosity grade. There's more in lubricating an engine than simple minimum HTHS value. That doesn't mean that any engine should have any wear problems with use of 0w30 A3 oil, but higher oil consumption, possible hydraulic adjusters /tensioner issues are possible.

 

[Pesca]

I asked because when I was one of those average european 16 years ago, I could not care less about the oil to use (yes, I know... my bad).

Proof is, I do not know what types of oils they sell over there. My dad and my brother go to the dealer when asked...

I am the only one in the family taking care of my cars... and I live in Canada now.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
No European car manufacturer specify SAE grade or ACEA spec. All they spec is oil that have approvals for engine in question. Yes, some of this specific approvals would overlap with basic ACEA spec, and some would be concentrated to only one SAE viscosity grade. There's more in lubricating an engine than simple minimum HTHS value. That doesn't mean that any engine should have any wear problems with use of 0w30 A3 oil, but higher oil consumption, possible hydraulic adjusters /tensioner issues are possible.

Exactly, most Euro manufacturers want their spec to be used, which usually overlaps with some ACEA spec.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
I asked because when I was one of those average european 16 years ago, I could not care less about the oil to use (yes, I know... my bad).

Proof is, I do not know what types of oils they sell over there. My dad and my brother go to the dealer when asked...

I am the only one in the family taking care of my cars... and I live in Canada now.

Well, you always have people who do not know much about it. I have some friends in Europe who do not drive period. Other usually know at least brand, spec and grade required for oil.
I just got back from Bosnia. Took Skoda Octavia that my brother owns to local mechanic to change oil. Only oils available in his shop are Repsol 5W30 VW 504.00/507.00 and Repsol 5W40 VW 502.00 and VW 505.01.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.


The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.

Of course it is not. Do you think average driver of VW Jetta 1.8TSI knows difference between Mobil1 5W30 and let's say Redline 5W30?
Be serious man.


Question is: Do you think the average european driver knows?

Does VW recommend xw-30 oil in Europe?
Do they have energy conserving (low HTHS) in Europe?


ACEA C2 is energy conserving, as is A1/B1.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Benito
I got it the first time guys.

The point is, edyvw said it's the reason Porsche and AMG specify 0w40.

Logic suggests that's not the reason. If it were, then the Euros would do the same for the other 99% of vehicles they sell.

Let's get this back on track to why specify xw40 if the HTHSv isn't guaranteed to be higher.



Benito,

I understand what you're trying to get at, but let's look at this from another angle... Let's take my "run-of-the-mill" Benz C300 with a 3.0 L M272 V6. It makes about 230 hp, not bad for a 3.0 L NA engine, but nowhere near the output of a typical AMG engine or forced induction Porsche engine.

So, let's say I were to be very ignorant about what to use in my car, and grab M1 5W30 (NOT approved) and use it for the life of my vehicle. The odds of me having a problem in this largely bullet-proof engine are very low, even though I SHOULD be using an approved oil (which I do in real life!!!)

But use a non-approved oil in an AMG engine, the odds are you may have a problem a lot sooner than you think, especially if you like to get into it regularly

I think that is why many folks here are saying that the reason for the restriction to use only xW-40 oils in these AMG engines is simply to avoid confusion, and avoid ruining a very expensive vehicle.

I know people with the same C300 that I have that simply run M1 5W30 out of ignorance, change it regularly, and have no problems. I can't say the same about any AMG or Porsche vehicle.

Also, the old GC 0W30 was Porsche A40 approved before they got rid of 30 grades in their approved oils list. Therefore, this tells you that a 30 grade oil CAN meet and/or exceed their specifications for wear and engine testing, just as GC 0W30 did a while back. I remember when it had the Porsche approval printed on the back of the bottle. So it stands to reason that it must be for marketing purposes, and to make the cars more foolproof to maintain. Also, QuattroPete had a good point that most xw40 oils do have a slightly higher HTHS than their xW30 counterparts, which is also a benefit when ignorance and/or poor maintenance come into question.

 

[Quattro Pete]

It's also interesting to note that as late as 2009, MB was not allowing any Xw-30 grades in any of their engines (not just AMG) if your ambient temps exceeded 86F...

But in later years they changed it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
On that note: how they come up with 0W16 not 0W15?

Because someone will grab a 15w-40 and Toyota et all will have a stroke.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
On that note: how they come up with 0W16 not 0W15?

Because someone will grab a 15w-40 and Toyota et all will have a stroke.

lol

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
On that note: how they come up with 0W16 not 0W15?

Because someone will grab a 15w-40 and Toyota et all will have a stroke.

lol


No, he's serious the 16 was to prevent people from grabbing a 15W-? (rather than a "15")

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
On that note: how they come up with 0W16 not 0W15?

Because someone will grab a 15w-40 and Toyota et all will have a stroke.

lol


No, he's serious the 16 was to prevent people from grabbing a 15W-? (rather than a "15")

 

[Garak]

The only thing that was actually a joke, warranting the smiley face, was the "stroke" part. The confusion of grades was their actual reasoning, believe it or not. Unfortunately, we just love to protect people from their own foolishness. If they can't tell the difference and run a 15w-40, I'm sure it's not going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of things, unless they're up here in the winter.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Garak
If they can't tell the difference and run a 15w-40, I'm sure it's not going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of things, unless they're up here in the winter.

But but but... fuel economy will take such a big hit, people will start suing Toyota for false MPG claims.

 

[Garak]

And there'll be a mountain of failed cats.

But, maybe oil consumption will disappear!

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It's also interesting to note that as late as 2009, MB was not allowing any Xw-30 grades in any of their engines (not just AMG) if your ambient temps exceeded 86F...

But in later years they changed it.



Yep, and here, just as with elsewhere eg the below link, it is very clear that Mercedes expect you to use a specified oil and that the grade variation is being made within that specification. Note that the document below is worldwide, so the reasoning that a consumer may pick up an API 5w30 is without merit imo.

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Benito


Yep, and here, just as with elsewhere eg the below link, it is very clear that Mercedes expect you to use a specified oil and that the grade variation is being made within that specification. Note that the document below is worldwide, so the reasoning that a consumer may pick up an API 5w30 is without merit imo.

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf



The reasoning is NOT without merit. Just because the API doesn't play outside of North America, the ACEA does have A1 and A5 rated xW-30 oils that are definitely not the specified oils for MB 229.5 applications (since HTHS will be below 3.5 in an A5 or A1 oil).

So the argument still holds merit. Also, don't take this the wrong way, I'm genuinely interested in the original question that you posed... However, I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this thread, because there is no one on this forum that knows exactly why Porsche and Benz (AMG) decided to ban 30 grade oils. We will never know the exact and accurate reason, although we can all theorize forever...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Benito
Thanks Shannow.

It was mentioned that Castrol Edge 0w30 and 0w40 are identical apart from the VII.

What would that mean for the KV and the HTHS? Can we say which measure would be higher and lower for each oil without the actual numbers and by just using the knowledge that one oil contains more VII than the other?


Been pondering a while on it, and IMO, 3.5+ HTHS 30 is the better of the two.

But am swayed strongly by the arguments that to state "5W30" would open the door to the unwashed to throw an ILSAC 5W30 in it...and I'd say the consumer damaging an engine that way in the US would probably be supported by the courts, in that it's an unusual nuance within what appears to be a common grade. (xW-HTHS style grading would fix that)

I think the Honda S2000 instance is the same. 10W30 is the recommendation, but to get the cold weather 5W grading, they recommend 5W40. JMO, but I think that's a vote against the possibility of an ILSAC 5W30 being added to that engine.

Thought I'd repeat my last question to Shannow because the posts since then have taken this thread off course and I wouldn't want him to miss it. [/quote]

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Also, don't take this the wrong way, I'm genuinely interested in the original question that you posed... However, I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this thread, because there is no one on this forum that knows exactly why Porsche and Benz (AMG) decided to ban 30 grade oils. We will never know the exact and accurate reason, although we can all theorize forever...


We're theorizing either way.

But let me point one thing out. Seeing how many non Porsche, non AMG engines did get sludged on API xw30, why haven't those manufacturers specified xw40 only and avoided the problem entirely?

The overwhelming proportion of Euro vehicles, and therefore the biggest numerical risk of using an API oil with a significantly lower HTHSv, are the non AMG and Porsche ones. If the technical writers were concerned about a risk of using the wrong oil, just specify xw40 for all of them. Makes life a lot simpler for the customer and the mechanic.

As to your question on what am I trying to get out of this thread, it's simple. The current thinking is that HTHSv is more important than KV for engine protection. But it is entirely allowable for an xw40 for AMG vehicles (and maybe Porsche), to have an HTHSv of 3.5. So how does moving up to xw40 guarantee more protection?

We also know that Castrol Edge 0w30 & 0w40 are identical apart from the VII. So are we saying that more VII offers more protection for AMG & Porsche?