Wear aside there's is real possibility of higher oil consumption when using 5w30 A3/B4 oil in engines designed around 5w40 oils. By how much it depends upon engine type and overall condition. Alfa Romeo 16v Twin Spark doesn't like 30 grade oils since it's somewhat performance engine for the period, and can achieve higher than usual oil temperatures. Also, engines that were specified for use with 10w40 when new can burn excessive amounts of 5w40 oil since KV100 is usually lower with this grade.
HTHSv and xw30 vs xw40 choice
- Thread starter Benito
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Originally Posted By: Benito
But you've seemed to miss the details in my opening question.
A xw30 can have a higher HTHSv than a xw40. And we've been told that HTHSv is more important than grade.
So in what way is the xw40 guaranteed to be tougher than the xw30? chrisri touched upon a possible reason. What do you think of that?
I did not miss your point, but you did mine.
If you allow 5W30 or 0W30 oils in these applications, uneducated drivers (and majority of them who drive those cars are very ignorant of mechanics of what they drive, they drive them bcs. of status and bcs they can afford them), it can happen very easily for drivers to use any 5W30 oils. And that is not limited to drivers only, many mechanics still claims that ANY synthetic oils is good for European cars.
Also, how many 5W30 oils have HTHS of 3.7? Redline has, BUT it is NOT approved by MB, BMW etc. All approved 0W30 and 5W30 oils today on the market that ARE approved have HTHS of 3.5-3.6 at best.
But you've seemed to miss the details in my opening question.
A xw30 can have a higher HTHSv than a xw40. And we've been told that HTHSv is more important than grade.
So in what way is the xw40 guaranteed to be tougher than the xw30? chrisri touched upon a possible reason. What do you think of that?
I did not miss your point, but you did mine.
If you allow 5W30 or 0W30 oils in these applications, uneducated drivers (and majority of them who drive those cars are very ignorant of mechanics of what they drive, they drive them bcs. of status and bcs they can afford them), it can happen very easily for drivers to use any 5W30 oils. And that is not limited to drivers only, many mechanics still claims that ANY synthetic oils is good for European cars.
Also, how many 5W30 oils have HTHS of 3.7? Redline has, BUT it is NOT approved by MB, BMW etc. All approved 0W30 and 5W30 oils today on the market that ARE approved have HTHS of 3.5-3.6 at best.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Benito
A xw30 can have a higher HTHSv than a xw40.
Theoretically, sure. Can you list some real life examples though, from the ones that officially meet mfg approvals?
This is the point here. Motul X-Clean is Porsche approved but HTHS is 3.64. Redline 5W30 is 3.7. RL is NOT approved by any manufacturer.
Originally Posted By: Benito
A xw30 can have a higher HTHSv than a xw40.
Theoretically, sure. Can you list some real life examples though, from the ones that officially meet mfg approvals?
This is the point here. Motul X-Clean is Porsche approved but HTHS is 3.64. Redline 5W30 is 3.7. RL is NOT approved by any manufacturer.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Benito
A xw30 can have a higher HTHSv than a xw40.
Theoretically, sure. Can you list some real life examples though, from the ones that officially meet mfg approvals?
Nope, but then again I haven't investigated the 100 or so approved oils!
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.5_en.html
Originally Posted By: Benito
A xw30 can have a higher HTHSv than a xw40.
Theoretically, sure. Can you list some real life examples though, from the ones that officially meet mfg approvals?
Nope, but then again I haven't investigated the 100 or so approved oils!
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.5_en.html
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I did not miss your point, but you did mine.
If you allow 5W30 or 0W30 oils in these applications, uneducated drivers (and majority of them who drive those cars are very ignorant of mechanics of what they drive, they drive them bcs. of status and bcs they can afford them), it can happen very easily for drivers to use any 5W30 oils. And that is not limited to drivers only, many mechanics still claims that ANY synthetic oils is good for European cars.
I understand that point, but BMW, VW, Audi, Non AMG Mercedes all allow xw30. The risk that you cite is there for the vast majority of Euro vehicles. AMG & Porsche are the only ones calling for xw40.
I did not miss your point, but you did mine.
If you allow 5W30 or 0W30 oils in these applications, uneducated drivers (and majority of them who drive those cars are very ignorant of mechanics of what they drive, they drive them bcs. of status and bcs they can afford them), it can happen very easily for drivers to use any 5W30 oils. And that is not limited to drivers only, many mechanics still claims that ANY synthetic oils is good for European cars.
I understand that point, but BMW, VW, Audi, Non AMG Mercedes all allow xw30. The risk that you cite is there for the vast majority of Euro vehicles. AMG & Porsche are the only ones calling for xw40.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Benito
Thanks Shannow.
So the implication is that AMG, and maybe also Porsche, specify xw40 for the benefit of protection for other parts of the engine.
This is what chrisri also said, but it's good to get more confirmation.
Honestly, I'm struggling to think of any region that would require a greater KV, particularly in the 30/40 grade.
The high shear areas will be protected by HTHS, and the low shear rate areas become high shear rate as the oil film thickness reduces.
Hydraulics would be working on KV, and their leakage rates are too. Honda mention problems on ultra low viscosity with phasers and the like, with the leakage and oil pressure that comes with ultra low viscosity oils.
But like I said, I can't see that as being a reason to pick more VII, more volatility between the 30s and 40s.
Thanks Shannow.
It was mentioned that Castrol Edge 0w30 and 0w40 are identical apart from the VII.
What would that mean for the KV and the HTHS? Can we say which measure would be higher and lower for each oil without the actual numbers and by just using the knowledge that one oil contains more VII than the other?
Originally Posted By: Benito
Thanks Shannow.
So the implication is that AMG, and maybe also Porsche, specify xw40 for the benefit of protection for other parts of the engine.
This is what chrisri also said, but it's good to get more confirmation.
Honestly, I'm struggling to think of any region that would require a greater KV, particularly in the 30/40 grade.
The high shear areas will be protected by HTHS, and the low shear rate areas become high shear rate as the oil film thickness reduces.
Hydraulics would be working on KV, and their leakage rates are too. Honda mention problems on ultra low viscosity with phasers and the like, with the leakage and oil pressure that comes with ultra low viscosity oils.
But like I said, I can't see that as being a reason to pick more VII, more volatility between the 30s and 40s.
Thanks Shannow.
It was mentioned that Castrol Edge 0w30 and 0w40 are identical apart from the VII.
What would that mean for the KV and the HTHS? Can we say which measure would be higher and lower for each oil without the actual numbers and by just using the knowledge that one oil contains more VII than the other?
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I did not miss your point, but you did mine.
If you allow 5W30 or 0W30 oils in these applications, uneducated drivers (and majority of them who drive those cars are very ignorant of mechanics of what they drive, they drive them bcs. of status and bcs they can afford them), it can happen very easily for drivers to use any 5W30 oils. And that is not limited to drivers only, many mechanics still claims that ANY synthetic oils is good for European cars.
I understand that point, but BMW, VW, Audi, Non AMG Mercedes all allow xw30. The risk that you cite is there for the vast majority of Euro vehicles. AMG & Porsche are the only ones calling for xw40.
Yeah, but that is their way of dealing with issues, just more stricter. BMW for a long time required 10W60 in their M engines due to some issues, but then some are now allowed to use BMW LL-01.
Precisely bcs they allow xxW30 in most of their engines, they can see issues. I know bunch of Euro engines, especially VW 1.8T that failed bcs drivers though ANY synthesis 5W30 is OK.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I did not miss your point, but you did mine.
If you allow 5W30 or 0W30 oils in these applications, uneducated drivers (and majority of them who drive those cars are very ignorant of mechanics of what they drive, they drive them bcs. of status and bcs they can afford them), it can happen very easily for drivers to use any 5W30 oils. And that is not limited to drivers only, many mechanics still claims that ANY synthetic oils is good for European cars.
I understand that point, but BMW, VW, Audi, Non AMG Mercedes all allow xw30. The risk that you cite is there for the vast majority of Euro vehicles. AMG & Porsche are the only ones calling for xw40.
Yeah, but that is their way of dealing with issues, just more stricter. BMW for a long time required 10W60 in their M engines due to some issues, but then some are now allowed to use BMW LL-01.
Precisely bcs they allow xxW30 in most of their engines, they can see issues. I know bunch of Euro engines, especially VW 1.8T that failed bcs drivers though ANY synthesis 5W30 is OK.
Originally Posted By: Benito
So do they now specify xw40 for the VW 1.8T?
Oh, VW 1.8T had a big issue here.
In Europe it was always specified as VW 502.00 which at that time was 10W40 (not many) but mostly 5W40.
Then when they brought that engine to the U.S> they were vague what oil goes in, in order not to be too strict for potential customers that they tried to win from Toyota, Honda etc.
What happened is: people start to go to 10min oil changes, and those on other hand did not nor they still have any clue what is proper oil for those engines. The result: thousands sludge bombs.
Then they issues technical bulletin requiring VW 502.00 (which is ACEA A3/B3 B4).
Of course, problems did not end up there, since people continue to use ANY synthetic.
I think that Porsche, AMG are more to the point in order to avoid these problems in extremely expensive cars.
So do they now specify xw40 for the VW 1.8T?
Oh, VW 1.8T had a big issue here.
In Europe it was always specified as VW 502.00 which at that time was 10W40 (not many) but mostly 5W40.
Then when they brought that engine to the U.S> they were vague what oil goes in, in order not to be too strict for potential customers that they tried to win from Toyota, Honda etc.
What happened is: people start to go to 10min oil changes, and those on other hand did not nor they still have any clue what is proper oil for those engines. The result: thousands sludge bombs.
Then they issues technical bulletin requiring VW 502.00 (which is ACEA A3/B3 B4).
Of course, problems did not end up there, since people continue to use ANY synthetic.
I think that Porsche, AMG are more to the point in order to avoid these problems in extremely expensive cars.
Originally Posted By: Benito
So do they now specify xw40 for the VW 1.8T?
Not really. If you look at the owner's manual of any new VW in the US, including the new 1.8T, you'll see reference to VW 502.00 spec and either 5w-40 or 5w-30 grade.
So do they now specify xw40 for the VW 1.8T?
Not really. If you look at the owner's manual of any new VW in the US, including the new 1.8T, you'll see reference to VW 502.00 spec and either 5w-40 or 5w-30 grade.
Originally Posted By: Benito
So they haven't fixed the issue by specifying xw40 then?
I can't imagine then that sludging is why AMG & Porsche specify xw40 when the HTHSv for approved xw30 is high enough.
Yes, BUT what if customer think that M1 5W30 that you can buy in Wal Mart is same as ACEA A3/B3 5W30?
So they haven't fixed the issue by specifying xw40 then?
I can't imagine then that sludging is why AMG & Porsche specify xw40 when the HTHSv for approved xw30 is high enough.
Yes, BUT what if customer think that M1 5W30 that you can buy in Wal Mart is same as ACEA A3/B3 5W30?
Originally Posted By: Benito
I can't imagine then that sludging is why AMG & Porsche specify xw40 when the HTHSv for approved xw30 is high enough.
What edy is saying is that some people don't look at approvals on the oil label. They just grab a viscosity grade that's mentioned in the manual because those are the only numbers/letters/nomenclature they recognize/are familiar with. And if they do that, they have a greater risk of getting themselves in trouble by grabbing an Xw-30 grade than an Xw-40 grade. Most readily available Xw-30 oils in the US are low HT/HS energy conserving oils that are formulated with fuel economy in mind. Most Xw-40 oils are not, and hence by grabbing any Xw-40 oil off the shelf, you have a higher chance of having HT/HS of 3.5 cP or more, even if you failed to look if it's got the required mfg spec on the label.
As far as the 1.8T sludging issue, IIRC this was caused not by running any run-of-the-mill synthetic but by running mineral oil. Those early VW owner's manuals just mentioned API SJ. No mention of any ACEA spec nor VW spec. So even VW/Audi dealers were using bulk mineral oil, and told customers to come back in 10K miles, which was the newly established OCI. 10K miles on API SJ mineral oil in a turbo application can be trouble, regardless of HT/HS viscosity, IMO.
I can't imagine then that sludging is why AMG & Porsche specify xw40 when the HTHSv for approved xw30 is high enough.
What edy is saying is that some people don't look at approvals on the oil label. They just grab a viscosity grade that's mentioned in the manual because those are the only numbers/letters/nomenclature they recognize/are familiar with. And if they do that, they have a greater risk of getting themselves in trouble by grabbing an Xw-30 grade than an Xw-40 grade. Most readily available Xw-30 oils in the US are low HT/HS energy conserving oils that are formulated with fuel economy in mind. Most Xw-40 oils are not, and hence by grabbing any Xw-40 oil off the shelf, you have a higher chance of having HT/HS of 3.5 cP or more, even if you failed to look if it's got the required mfg spec on the label.
As far as the 1.8T sludging issue, IIRC this was caused not by running any run-of-the-mill synthetic but by running mineral oil. Those early VW owner's manuals just mentioned API SJ. No mention of any ACEA spec nor VW spec. So even VW/Audi dealers were using bulk mineral oil, and told customers to come back in 10K miles, which was the newly established OCI. 10K miles on API SJ mineral oil in a turbo application can be trouble, regardless of HT/HS viscosity, IMO.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Benito
I can't imagine then that sludging is why AMG & Porsche specify xw40 when the HTHSv for approved xw30 is high enough.
What edy is saying is that some people don't look at approvals on the oil label. They just grab a viscosity grade that's mentioned in the manual. And if they do that, they have a greater risk of getting themselves in trouble by grabbing an Xw-30 grade than an Xw-40 grade. Most readily available Xw-30 oils in the US are low HT/HS energy conserving oils that are formulated with fuel economy in mind. Most Xw-40 oils are not, and hence by grabbing any Xw-40 oil off the shelf, you have a higher chance of having HT/HS of 3.5 cP or more, even if you failed to look if it's got the required mfg spec on the label.
As far as the 1.8T sludging issue, IIRC this was caused not by running any run-of-the-mill synthetic but by running mineral oil. Those early VW owner's manuals just mentioned API SJ. No mention of any ACEA spec. So even VW/Audi dealers were using bulk mineral oil, and told customers to come back in 10K miles, which was the newly established OCI. 10K miles on mineral oil in a turbo application can be trouble, regardless of HT/HS viscosity, IMO.
Youe explained it better.
As far as VW, I saw some destroyed ones using Mobil1 5W30 all their life span. One in particular had 80K!
Originally Posted By: Benito
I can't imagine then that sludging is why AMG & Porsche specify xw40 when the HTHSv for approved xw30 is high enough.
What edy is saying is that some people don't look at approvals on the oil label. They just grab a viscosity grade that's mentioned in the manual. And if they do that, they have a greater risk of getting themselves in trouble by grabbing an Xw-30 grade than an Xw-40 grade. Most readily available Xw-30 oils in the US are low HT/HS energy conserving oils that are formulated with fuel economy in mind. Most Xw-40 oils are not, and hence by grabbing any Xw-40 oil off the shelf, you have a higher chance of having HT/HS of 3.5 cP or more, even if you failed to look if it's got the required mfg spec on the label.
As far as the 1.8T sludging issue, IIRC this was caused not by running any run-of-the-mill synthetic but by running mineral oil. Those early VW owner's manuals just mentioned API SJ. No mention of any ACEA spec. So even VW/Audi dealers were using bulk mineral oil, and told customers to come back in 10K miles, which was the newly established OCI. 10K miles on mineral oil in a turbo application can be trouble, regardless of HT/HS viscosity, IMO.
Youe explained it better.
As far as VW, I saw some destroyed ones using Mobil1 5W30 all their life span. One in particular had 80K!
I got it the first time guys.
The point is, edyvw said it's the reason Porsche and AMG specify 0w40.
Logic suggests that's not the reason. If it were, then the Euros would do the same for the other 99% of vehicles they sell.
Let's get this back on track to why specify xw40 if the HTHSv isn't guaranteed to be higher.
The point is, edyvw said it's the reason Porsche and AMG specify 0w40.
Logic suggests that's not the reason. If it were, then the Euros would do the same for the other 99% of vehicles they sell.
Let's get this back on track to why specify xw40 if the HTHSv isn't guaranteed to be higher.
Originally Posted By: Benito
I got it the first time guys.
The point is, edyvw said it's the reason Porsche and AMG specify 0w40.
Logic suggests that's not the reason. If it were, then the Euros would do the same for the other 99% of vehicles they sell.
Let's get this back on track to why specify xw40 if the HTHSv isn't guaranteed to be higher.
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.
Why not in other engines: MPG! Very simple. Porsche and AMG are not in business of conserving fuel, other models by Mercedes, Audi, VW in general are.
I got it the first time guys.
The point is, edyvw said it's the reason Porsche and AMG specify 0w40.
Logic suggests that's not the reason. If it were, then the Euros would do the same for the other 99% of vehicles they sell.
Let's get this back on track to why specify xw40 if the HTHSv isn't guaranteed to be higher.
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.
Why not in other engines: MPG! Very simple. Porsche and AMG are not in business of conserving fuel, other models by Mercedes, Audi, VW in general are.
Does anyone know what the Porsche A40 spec actually entails, other than needing HT/HS visc. of at least 3.5 cP and calling for Xw-40 grade? I don't think I've ever seen it.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.
The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.
The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.
Originally Posted By: Benito
Thanks Shannow.
It was mentioned that Castrol Edge 0w30 and 0w40 are identical apart from the VII.
What would that mean for the KV and the HTHS? Can we say which measure would be higher and lower for each oil without the actual numbers and by just using the knowledge that one oil contains more VII than the other?
Thought I'd repeat my last question to Shannow because the posts since then have taken this thread off course and I wouldn't want him to miss it.
Thanks Shannow.
It was mentioned that Castrol Edge 0w30 and 0w40 are identical apart from the VII.
What would that mean for the KV and the HTHS? Can we say which measure would be higher and lower for each oil without the actual numbers and by just using the knowledge that one oil contains more VII than the other?
Thought I'd repeat my last question to Shannow because the posts since then have taken this thread off course and I wouldn't want him to miss it.
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.
The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.
Of course it is not. Do you think average driver of VW Jetta 1.8TSI knows difference between Mobil1 5W30 and let's say Redline 5W30?
Be serious man.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes it is guaranteed! If you get M1 5W30 in awl mart, any xW40 will have much higher HTHS.
The M1 5w30 in Walmart is not a Euro oil. This is not the comparison I have been talking about since starting this thread.
Of course it is not. Do you think average driver of VW Jetta 1.8TSI knows difference between Mobil1 5W30 and let's say Redline 5W30?
Be serious man.
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