2019 Ram 5.7 HPL Choice

[racer12306]

I have 1000 miles on my current fill of HPL PCMO 5w20 ("base model"), so I have 9000 miles to figure out what's next. I've made the decision to step up to a xW30 oil. We don't get cold enough here to require 0w but I'm not opposed to it. I'm looking at every offering that is on the Advanced Lubrication website, Euro, SuperCar, No VII, Premium PCMO, Premium Plus PCMO, HD CK4.

The goal is protection while maintaining at least 10,000 mile intervals (we're not going to debate the interval here). If I extend further, it would be UOA supported with a mid-way filter change.

Brief vehicle history
Bought at 8800 miles in June 2020, did my first oil change at 16,500 with Penn Platinum 5w20 and then changed per the OLM (~10k OCI) with PP 5w20 until the 56,000 mile change where I switched to HPL 5w20. Changed with HPL 5w20 at 66000 and this is the current fill. Last year I drove ~23,000 miles, this year I'm trending to 24-25,000 miles. This is the vehicle that we get in to go places, work, family, etc. With the PP, the engine would use 1/2qt in the last few thousand miles of the OCI. I'll do a better job paying attention to the HPL as I get near the end of this 10k. I'm planning to UOA at the end of this interval.

I've looked over the specs for all of these oils and I keep coming back to the Euro option in 0w30 or 5w30. Solid HTHS (>3.5), VW504/507 add pack. Only downside I see is a slightly lower TBN but I don't see how that would really be a huge issue. Could always go with the Euro No VII for a couple point bump. Higher numbers = more betterer, right? The No VII also references API SL, not SN, if that really matters.

There is the SuperCar, but I'm just not seeing where it would benefit, unless the VW 502/505 add pack is really that much better. There's also the API SL reference for the SuperCar as well.

What say the fanboi collective?

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm a fan of the Euro (A40/LL01/229.5/502) additive package personally, as you know.

The Euro PCEO (low SAPS) 0W-30 is $100.85 for the 6x1 quart case
The Super Car (full SAPS) 0W-30 is $$100.85 for the 6x1 quart case

So you aren't saving any money going Euro over Super Car.

 

[The Critic]

I am running the No VII 5W20, mainly because the HT/HS exceeds many 30wt oils.

 

[racer12306]

I'm a fan of the Euro (A40/LL01/229.5/502) additive package personally, as you know.

The Euro PCEO (low SAPS) 0W-30 is $100.85 for the 6x1 quart case
The Super Car (full SAPS) 0W-30 is $$100.85 for the 6x1 quart case

So you aren't saving any money going Euro over Super Car.

Something I haven't been able to wrap my head around is the SAPS stuff. Not sure if it were the sources I was using or if I just didn't it enough time to understand.

Is there a "SAPS for Dummies" somewhere?

 

[buster]

Something I haven't been able to wrap my head around is the SAPS stuff. Not sure if it were the sources I was using or if I just didn't it enough time to understand.

Is there a "SAPS for Dummies" somewhere?

Can't go wrong with any of the choices. All of the HPL grades contain esters for great solvency. I would go with the Euro personally and that is likely I would use.

Sulfated ash...what is it, and how much is too much?

I was comparing oils the other day and noticed VW 504.00 specs sulfated ash of 1.5% or less, while the thinner 508.00 specs less than 1%. First of all, what is sulfated ash and is more or less a good thing? Second, what is the purpose or drive of a manufacturer to spec lower sulfated ash?

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[The Critic]

Something I haven't been able to wrap my head around is the SAPS stuff. Not sure if it were the sources I was using or if I just didn't it enough time to understand.

Is there a "SAPS for Dummies" somewhere?

You’re going to get different opinions on this. OEM’s and boutiques stand very differently on this issue. Both sides have valid arguments, you’ll have to make your own decision.

 

[racer12306]

Can't go wrong with any of the choices. All of the HPL grades contain esters for great solvency. I would go with the Euro personally and that is likely I would use.

Sulfated ash...what is it, and how much is too much?

I was comparing oils the other day and noticed VW 504.00 specs sulfated ash of 1.5% or less, while the thinner 508.00 specs less than 1%. First of all, what is sulfated ash and is more or less a good thing? Second, what is the purpose or drive of a manufacturer to spec lower sulfated ash?

bobistheoilguy.com

The Lubrizol link is interesting.

If I'm understanding the chart correctly, VW504/507 is the Grand Pumbaa of desirable features.

 

[Titan]

I went 0w30 Supercar on my B48 BMW engine with 300+ HP. Dave's recommendation. Working great so far. Will probably test at 7500 miles and keep going for longer if the UOA comes back showing good life remaining.

 

[OVERKILL]

The Lubrizol link is interesting.

If I'm understanding the chart correctly, VW504/507 is the Grand Pumbaa of desirable features.View attachment 177368

Keep in mind:

502/505 is not the same specification as 504/507. Also, if you want to get really confused, start looking at the same approvals over different years:

I take that evolution to mean that more emphasis was placed on soot thickening, sludge, deposits and oxidative thickening in the revision (work was put into improve these areas over the previous version) not that wear, and aftertreatment compatibility were abandoned.

I'm not concerned about aftertreatment regardless, because I don't have any, and neither do you.

 

[Nick814]

Too many options. Premium. Euro. No VII. Frustrating to figure out . I just went with Amsoil SS. Cheaper at $11/qt and i can get 7 quarts

 

[OVERKILL]

Can't go wrong with any of the choices. All of the HPL grades contain esters for great solvency. I would go with the Euro personally and that is likely I would use.

Sulfated ash...what is it, and how much is too much?

I was comparing oils the other day and noticed VW 504.00 specs sulfated ash of 1.5% or less, while the thinner 508.00 specs less than 1%. First of all, what is sulfated ash and is more or less a good thing? Second, what is the purpose or drive of a manufacturer to spec lower sulfated ash?

bobistheoilguy.com

That's a great answer from SoJ in that thread (well, series of answers). He touches-on why I still prefer a full-SAPS Euro oil over the API stuff, and that's the inclusion of more phosphorous for AW. Many of the low/mid SAPS oils also have more phosphorous than their API siblings, the full-SAPS ones just have more (and the HDEO's have even more still). Of course there's a point of diminishing returns where having more AW chemistry is no longer beneficial and I think that's what we see with the full-SAPS lubes. There's no limit placed on phosphorous, but they don't use obscene levels, most are around 1000-1200ppm.

The API on the other hand, hard-caps phosphorous on xW-30 and below, so the formula is already kneecapped. If you are concerned about the blender having the most freedom possible to meet the performance requirements, IMHO, the full-SAPS oils and additive packages have a leg-up here.

The limit on phosphorous by the API is for catalyst protection with thinner oils, which are more liable to consumed, which is how the phosphorous gets to the catalyst. The ACEA, which has stricter limits on volatility, doesn't restrict phosphorous in the same way, hence an oil marketed as low-SAPS and suitable for use with GPF/DPF equipped vehicles still having more phosphorous than Joe Average Supertech API formula targeting the Ford WSS specs and GM dexos.

 

[OVERKILL]

Too many options. Premium. Euro. No VII. Frustrating to figure out . I just went with Amsoil SS. Cheaper at $11/qt and i can get 7 quarts

You realize AMSOIL has a dedicated Euro lineup too, right?

Your statement is akin to me saying: "too many options, OE, XL, Euro, SS, frustrating to figure out, I just went with Supertech, cheaper and I can get it at Walmart".

 

[Nick814]

You realize AMSOIL has a dedicated Euro lineup too, right?

Your statement is akin to me saying: "too many options, OE, XL, Euro, SS, frustrating to figure out, I just went with Supertech, cheaper and I can get it at Walmart".

Yes you are correct. Thinking more on it, i suppose its easier to wrap my head around SS just being their top oil. I spent a lot of time on the HPL site, was back and forth between 4 oils, and when the time came just found easier to go SS. Boom. Done. And i really didnt want to purchase 12 qts or the 4 gallons.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes you are correct. Thinking more on it, i suppose its easier to wrap my head around SS just being their top oil. I spent a lot of time on the HPL site, was back and forth between 4 oils, and when the time came just found easier to go SS. Boom. Done. And i really didnt want to purchase 12 qts or the 4 gallons.

To simplify the comparison:
SCEO would be SS, except AMSOIL goes with API additive levels for SS, while HPL goes with Euro ones for SC.
PCEO would be OE
PPCEO would be XL
EPCEO would be Euro

 

[buster]

I guess the way I look at it is I don’t get caught up anymore on the level of any particular additive as I don’t really think it’s relevant to how any of this works when you consider the overall package; because there are alternative chemistries that work as well. This is proven through stringent wear tests the oils must pass. Then you have to factor in HT/HS and viscosity etc.

When you exceed these tests such as GM turbo test, the Peugeot tu3, IIH even the IVA on API levels of ZDP I don’t think it’s necessarily bad that some things have to be lowered. I would say that saying an oils needs “this amount of xyz” is putting yourself in a restricted box in some sense. However I’m sure you can also gain in some cases too by having more freedom to formulate with no restrictions, like HPL. I’m not for full, mid or low SAPS. I’m for whatever works.

 

[racer12306]

Yes you are correct. Thinking more on it, i suppose its easier to wrap my head around SS just being their top oil. I spent a lot of time on the HPL site, was back and forth between 4 oils, and when the time came just found easier to go SS. Boom. Done. And i really didnt want to purchase 12 qts or the 4 gallons.

I think that HPL is pretty straight forward, unless you’re a BITOG member and will branch out of the norm.

HPL has three regular gasoline engine oils. Great, better and betterer.

What normal person would look at Euro blend or SuperCar blend if they don’t have a Euro or super car? Then there’s the diesel oils that are fairly self explanatory.

Definitely understand not wanting to be restricted by their packaging. That’s not a concern for me. Buy 12 qts now and use 8, then buy 12 next time and then not buy any on the 3rd change. Or buy the 4 gallon pack and use two now and two next. I don’t like having “just enough.” I want at least a little extra.

 

[OVERKILL]

I guess the way I look at it is I don’t get caught up anymore on the level of any particular additive as I don’t really think it’s relevant to how any of this works when you consider the overall package; because there are alternative chemistries that work as well. This is proven through stringent wear tests the oils must pass. Then you have to factor in HT/HS and viscosity etc.

When you exceed these tests such as GM turbo test, the Peugeot tu3, IIH even the IVA on API levels of ZDP I don’t think it’s necessarily bad that some things have to be lowered. I would say that saying an oils needs “this amount of xyz” is putting yourself in a restricted box in some sense. However I’m sure you can also gain in some cases too by having more freedom to formulate with no restrictions, like HPL. I’m not for full, mid or low SAPS. I’m for whatever works.

There's a reason Ford mandates a minimum level of phosphorous in their diesel spec

Not sure if you saw, but @RDY4WAR recently mentioned that an engine he built lost the cam because the guy that bought it watched the Project Farm oil comparison video and believed that Supertech (which meets those API specs) was just as good as the oil he was instructed to use with this engine.

Even the low-SAPS Euro oils have higher phosphorous levels than the API ones.

Phosphorous isn't restricted by the API because other additives are just as good, they aren't, it's restricted on the xW-30 and below grades, which typically have higher volatility and are more likely to be consumed, in order to preserve catalyst life in situations where phosphorous ends up in the exhaust system.

Yes, the oil companies have been forced to find ways around the requirements for reduced levels of phosphorous in order to maintain adequate levels of wear control, and engine companies are making it easier with improved coatings and roller components, it doesn't mean that wear wouldn't be even lower with a higher level of phosphorous, like what we see in the unconstrained full-SAPS Euro oils.

Now, that's not to say every application could benefit from increased phosphorous either. Low stress applications with overhead cams and lightweight roller valvetrains are less demanding from an AW chemistry perspective than a pushrod engine with heavier valvesprings and strange valvetrain geometry (the HEMI).

 

[DirectRejection]

Somebody gave viscosity index improvers a bad name....

 

[buster]

There's a reason Ford mandates a minimum level of phosphorous in their diesel spec

Not sure if you saw, but @RDY4WAR recently mentioned that an engine he built lost the cam because the guy that bought it watched the Project Farm oil comparison video and believed that Supertech (which meets those API specs) was just as good as the oil he was instructed to use with this engine.

Even the low-SAPS Euro oils have higher phosphorous levels than the API ones.

Phosphorous isn't restricted by the API because other additives are just as good, they aren't, it's restricted on the xW-30 and below grades, which typically have higher volatility and are more likely to be consumed, in order to preserve catalyst life in situations where phosphorous ends up in the exhaust system.

Yes, the oil companies have been forced to find ways around the requirements for reduced levels of phosphorous in order to maintain adequate levels of wear control, and engine companies are making it easier with improved coatings and roller components, it doesn't mean that wear wouldn't be even lower with a higher level of phosphorous, like what we see in the unconstrained full-SAPS Euro oils.

Now, that's not to say every application could benefit from increased phosphorous either. Low stress applications with overhead cams and lightweight roller valvetrains are less demanding from an AW chemistry perspective than a pushrod engine with heavier valvesprings and strange valvetrain geometry (the HEMI).

It's interesting that the companies that have more freedom (HPL and Red Line let's say) do seem to prefer higher levels of AW/detergents. Which makes you wonder what compromises are being made with the low/mid-SAPS oils. But at the same time there are some great mid-SAP blends.

The SP oils have improved wear control on the previous SN spec. It really comes down to the application too as you said - daily driver vs someone racing a lot.

Ughhh Project Farm. RATBLOG LOL

 

[buster]

Somebody gave viscosity index improvers a bad name....

Probably from oils that were/are loaded up with low quality VIIs.