MOS2 question.

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Hollow
Does any one have a recommendation on whether to add MOS2 to a 10k QSUD run or a 5K QSAD run?


I don't see why your choice of oil or the OCI would matter that much. Use the product and OCI that has worked best for you in the past, or that which is recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. MoS2 added to the oil will adhere to the metal parts and stay there - at least for the next oil change or two. From that point forward, it's really just a matter of maintenance of MoS2.

If you decide to go with a 10k OCI, it might impact your choice of oil filters, but 10k miles is not really that long and most filters can handle it.

I have never used Quaker State oils and am really not that familiar with them, so someone else will have to jump in on the differences, benefits, etc. My general thought is that any quality oil that meets the vehicle manufacturer's specs will work just fine.

 

[wag123]

I have never seen L-M MoS2 advertised on TV or in an infomercial. To my knowledge, L-M has never made the kind of ridiculous claims that seem to characterise the advertising of this kind of product like Slick 50, Dura-Lube, and Z-Max have made.
Back in the 70's and 80's they originally sold it only through new car dealers and auto repair shops, primarily on the service drive. From that point on, advertising has been primarily by word of mouth from satisfied users, that is how I found out about it. Back in the early days it was VERY expensive relative to today's price, yet they continued to improve their sales year after year. It's hard to dispute the kind of success that is achieved by creating so many satisfied users (like myself) over such a long period of time.

 

[wag123]

For those detractors who continue to insist that L-M MoS2 is snake oil and does nothing, you need to read the material that our host has provided in the FAQ section on this website about what MoS2 does and how it works (including electron microscope images of how MoS2 actually bonds to the wear areas inside an engine).
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/applications-for-lubrication/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/what-is-blow-by/

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: wag123
I have never seen L-M MoS2 advertised on TV or in an infomercial. To my knowledge, L-M has never made the kind of ridiculous claims that seem to characterise the advertising of this kind of product like Slick 50, Dura-Lube, and Z-Max have made.


I haven't seen any L-M ads, period. L-M's print advertising is pretty sedate. FWIW, the 'claim' in the TV ads is not ridiculous - MoS2 really should provide 'limp home' protection, to use L-M's words. I haven't seen much advertising on this product in years.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
FWIW, the 'claim' in the TV ads is not ridiculous - MoS2 really should provide 'limp home' protection, to use L-M's words.

The infomercials that Slick 50, Dura-Lube, and Z-Max have made showing engines/cars being run without oil in the crankcases and surviving abuse ARE ridiculous, as are the Z-Max infomercials claiming that their product actually "soaks" into metal (in terms of the physics involved this is just plain nonsense).
The infomercial that really cracks me up is the one where they run an engine on a trailer with the oil pan, valve cover, and fan belt removed while soaking the engine with water from a fire hose. IMHO this is the ultimate kind of deceptive advertising because, as any experienced mechanic knows, an engine will run for a fairly extended period without oil in it as long as the engine is not put under any kind of load (like the engine in the infomercial). Frankly, I don't put ANY faith in ANY product that it will actually protect an engine under a load from damage cause by a lack of oil or loss of oil pressure, L-M MoS2 included.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: dave5358
FWIW, the 'claim' in the TV ads is not ridiculous - MoS2 really should provide 'limp home' protection, to use L-M's words.

The infomercials that Slick 50, Dura-Lube, and Z-Max have made showing engines/cars being run without oil in the crankcases and surviving abuse ARE ridiculous, as are the Z-Max infomercials claiming that their product actually "soaks" into metal (in terms of the physics involved this is just plain nonsense). The infomercial that really cracks me up is the one where they run an engine on a trailer with the oil pan, valve cover, and fan belt removed while soaking the engine with water from a fire hose. IMHO this is the ultimate kind of deceptive advertising because, as any experienced mechanic knows, an engine will run for a fairly extended period without oil in it as long as the engine is not put under any kind of load (like the engine in the infomercial). Frankly, I don't put ANY faith in ANY product that it will actually protect an engine under a load from damage cause by a lack of oil or loss of oil pressure, L-M MoS2 included.


Don't blame the product just because some huckster makes up an overly creative advertisement.

You're exactly right about the engine-on-a-trailer ad. Oil provides lubrication AND cooling. If you drain the oil (but have something like MoS2 in the bearings), you remove both the cooling and lubrication benefits of the oil but the MoS2 will continue to provide lubrication - and the fire hose should keep things cool - particularly if you keep the RPMs down.

But the biggest scam in all of this is lack of relevance: how often have you lost your engine oil? Do you even know someone who has lost all their oil? If you use MoS2 primarily for this benefit, it is akin to buying insurance against a meteorite hit.

--

At Sam's Club, a huckster was selling kitchen knives. To demonstrate their usefulness, he took a knife from the set and sawed a notch in the side of a claw hammer. Amazing! These are just the knives you need if you frequently prepare claw hammers in your kitchen. For everyone else, the knives were [censored] - buy your cutlery elsewhere.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: dave5358

Don't blame the product just because some huckster makes up an overly creative advertisement.

No REPUTABLE company would pay to have somebody produce and air an advertisement for their product that is deliberately false (a little misleading, maybe). This is particularly true when the product absolutely will not do what they say it will do and they KNOW it!

Originally Posted By: dave5358

But the biggest scam in all of this is lack of relevance: how often have you lost your engine oil? Do you even know someone who has lost all their oil?

I have never personally lost the oil in any engine that I have ever owned. But, I have known plenty of people who have, even some people who had used products like Slick 50 and Dura-Lube. Guess what, all of their engines were destroyed almost IMMEDIATELY after they lost their oil!

Originally Posted By: dave5358

If you use MoS2 primarily for this benefit, it is akin to buying insurance against a meteorite hit.

I agree.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: dave5358

Don't blame the product just because some huckster makes up an overly creative advertisement.


No REPUTABLE company would pay to have somebody produce and air an advertisement for their product that is deliberately false (a little misleading, maybe). This is particularly true when the product absolutely will not do what they say it will do and they KNOW it!


As for reputable company, MoS2 is simply a material mined from the ground - in the US it's mostly mined by Climax Molybdenum. You can buy the powdered form on eBay in several different grades. As sold in oil suspension by Dow-Corning (Molykote) or LiquiMoly (Lubro-Moly), this powder is milled very fine, then put into an oil suspension and packaged for end use. Dow-Corning probably sells the oil-suspension in bulk - that's what large chemical companies do - so it would not be difficult for a small additive company to repackage and sell it. Neither Dow-Corning nor LiquiMoly nor Climax Molydenum advertise, to the best of my knowledge - certainly not on TV.

Originally Posted By: wag123
This is particularly true when the product absolutely will not do what they say it will do and they KNOW it!


On this point, you are probably mistaken. MoS2 will do this interesting feat: provide continued lubrication to an engine when the oil is drained, at least for a short period of time. Legitimate uses of this unique quality are reasonably well documented in aircraft. Whether emergency lubrication upon oil loss is a useful product for consumers is debatable. But, then some folks may want to buy meteorite insurance.

 

[wag123]

dave5358, you obviously haven't read any of my other posts. I am not in disagreement with you about MoS2. I'm talking about the OTHER products and their nonsense infomercials. I have been a loyal L-M MoS2 user for over 25 years. I very much like and believe in the product and in the company. IMO, it is the only product of it's type that actually does what they say it does.
Having said that, maybe I'm wrong but I PERSONALLY don't believe that ANY product will protect an engine that is under a load from being damaged by a total loss of oil or oil pressure and as much as I like the product, this includes MoS2. That is really the only point that I disagree with you on. I will continue to use the product, IMO it is well worth the price!

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: wag123

Having said that, maybe I'm wrong but I PERSONALLY don't believe that ANY product will protect an engine that is under a load from being damaged by a total loss of oil or oil pressure and as much as I like the product, this includes MoS2. That is really the only point that I disagree with you on. I will continue to use the product, IMO it is well worth the price!


The air slowly clears. I'm not questioning your approval of MoS2. And I can't speak to any of the other products, but I doubt that they will deliver - at least not like MoS2. But, who knows?

As for MoS2, yes, it will do this thing. The Lubro-Moly folks call it 'limp home protection'. While MoS2 is the most common dry-film lubrication in use today, one of the most spectacular applications for this product was in aircraft engines. One of the best general references to this product is Molybdenum Disulphide Lubrication by A. R. Lansdown, at least an abstract is available online - maybe the whole banana.

Airplanes do not 'lose their oil' any more often than automobiles, but loss of oil pressure in an airplane can result not only in the destruction of the engine but danger to the pilot and crew as well. The chances of losing your oil increase if someone is shooting at you, either from the ground or from another airplane. If a way could be found to avoid engine seizing upon loss of oil pressure, then the pilot would still have hydraulic power (to lower the landing gear) and perhaps be able to do some limited maneuvering - landing quickly but under limited power is a lot better than dropping like a rock. Molybdenum disulphide filled this need - particularly in water cooled engines like the Rolls-Royce Merlin V-12 and the Packard V-1650.. These are both water cooled engines, so the cooling system could continue to remove heat, even if oiling failed completely.

Will an airplane engine run forever on Moly? No, of course not, but even 3 or 5 more minutes running time is no small matter. Nomex flight suits gave Army helo pilots and race-car drivers a mere 30 seconds of protection in a fire or crash, but those 30 seconds were a lifetime.

As for the TV ads for Moly, they are entertaining, if not irrelevant. I'm not planning to drain my oil and drive off into the sunset. But doing this would probably work if the ambient temperatures were low, the cooling system was working properly, I didn't drive too far and heavy loading on the engine was avoided. I would have time to make it home, or off the next Interstate ramp or maybe to my insurance agent to buy meteorite insurance!

If you peruse BITOG's Motor Oil University you may note that motor oil lubricates and also removes heat. Electric motors run fine with just grease or dry lubrication - no pressure oil supply for heat removal - only air cooling of the bearings. So the heat being removed from an automobile engine is mostly combustion heat - not heat from friction.

If you could get a dry-film lubricant like MoS2 into the bearings and journals of an automobile engine and you had an alternate way of cooling the whole assembly, you should have a few minutes of driving time (or flying time) available. Not surprisingly, at least according to Lansdown, the post-WWII aircraft industry was the largest original user of MoS2 and continues to be a major consumer of MoS2 products.

--

Please note that I really, really hate being in the position of defending the TV hucksters ;-)

 

[Injured_Again]

To kind of bring this back somewhat to the OP's original question, I noticed yesterday when looking at my oil level that the grey coloration from the MoS2 seems to have decreased.

This could be kind of worrying if the oil filter is filtering it out. I'm over 3k miles into this oil, and like I was told, real improvements weren't noticeable until a few hundred miles into use of the MoS2. What is different, though, is that even at 3k miles, the engine continues to get smoother and more quiet running, which is not typical.

I was told by experienced users of MoS2 that the coloration of the oil would clear as the MoS2 became plated onto the metal. I believe that for whatever reason, maybe that my engine has a lot of internal scuffing, that this process has continued for a lot longer than others have experienced.

So, my advice for the OP would be to plan to use the oil which he believes will allow the running of the longer OCI, just in case his experience is like mines.

As for me, I have a couple of questions. First, is there a limit to how much MoS2 can plate and fill up irregularities? Second, would it be worthwhile to add some more MoS2 to bring the level back up to the same opacity that I had when I first added a full dose of it to fresh oil?

So,

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: dave5358
FWIW, the 'claim' in the TV ads is not ridiculous - MoS2 really should provide 'limp home' protection, to use L-M's words.

The infomercials that Slick 50, Dura-Lube, and Z-Max have made showing engines/cars being run without oil in the crankcases and surviving abuse ARE ridiculous, as are the Z-Max infomercials claiming that their product actually "soaks" into metal (in terms of the physics involved this is just plain nonsense).

It's well known here that I really dislike additives. Nonetheless, I'm really not offended by this hyper-marketing of them. After all, are they really going to be selling much if they claim that the large dollars you spent may only get you a marginal improvement upon the additive package of your oil or gasoline or, more likely, do no good whatsoever?

 

[TrevorS]

Or they could market it at people afraid their vehicles are likely to get shot at, so they can limp home after driving around Chicago.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: Injured_Again
To kind of bring this back somewhat to the OP's original question, I noticed yesterday when looking at my oil level that the grey coloration from the MoS2 seems to have decreased.

This could be kind of worrying if the oil filter is filtering it out. I'm over 3k miles into this oil, and like I was told, real improvements weren't noticeable until a few hundred miles into use of the MoS2. What is different, though, is that even at 3k miles, the engine continues to get smoother and more quiet running, which is not typical.

I was told by experienced users of MoS2 that the coloration of the oil would clear as the MoS2 became plated onto the metal. I believe that for whatever reason, maybe that my engine has a lot of internal scuffing, that this process has continued for a lot longer than others have experienced.

So, my advice for the OP would be to plan to use the oil which he believes will allow the running of the longer OCI, just in case his experience is like mines.

As for me, I have a couple of questions. First, is there a limit to how much MoS2 can plate and fill up irregularities? Second, would it be worthwhile to add some more MoS2 to bring the level back up to the same opacity that I had when I first added a full dose of it to fresh oil?

So,

Don't worry about the oil filter removing the MoS2 from your oil, this will not happen and there has been ample hard evidence presented here on BITOG to backup this statement (from members cutting open and examining their oil filters). Your oil getting clearer with miles is an indication that the MoS2 is actually doing what it is supposed to do. Your being able to see this happening is good news, not bad. From what I understand, MoS2 doesn't "build up" on a metal surface because it can't readily stick to itself.
You don't need to add more MoS2 to your current oil. Once the the MoS2 has plated out a "virgin" engine, the only MoS2 that the engine needs is just enough to replace the plating that is "sacrificed" during normal engine use. This is reason that most MoS2 users (myself included) cut the dose in half after the first can, which makes it very economical to use over the long haul.

 

[Boss302fan]

Its a very good product but I really do not think a full can is needed in a sump of 6 quarts or less. I have used it and I think a half can is enough...

 

[Injured_Again]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: Injured_Again
To kind of bring this back somewhat to the OP's original question, I noticed yesterday when looking at my oil level that the grey coloration from the MoS2 seems to have decreased.

This could be kind of worrying if the oil filter is filtering it out. I'm over 3k miles into this oil, and like I was told, real improvements weren't noticeable until a few hundred miles into use of the MoS2. What is different, though, is that even at 3k miles, the engine continues to get smoother and more quiet running, which is not typical.

I was told by experienced users of MoS2 that the coloration of the oil would clear as the MoS2 became plated onto the metal. I believe that for whatever reason, maybe that my engine has a lot of internal scuffing, that this process has continued for a lot longer than others have experienced.

So, my advice for the OP would be to plan to use the oil which he believes will allow the running of the longer OCI, just in case his experience is like mines.

As for me, I have a couple of questions. First, is there a limit to how much MoS2 can plate and fill up irregularities? Second, would it be worthwhile to add some more MoS2 to bring the level back up to the same opacity that I had when I first added a full dose of it to fresh oil?

So,

Don't worry about the oil filter removing the MoS2 from your oil, this will not happen and there has been ample hard evidence presented here on BITOG to backup this statement (from members cutting open and examining their oil filters). Your oil getting clearer with miles is an indication that the MoS2 is actually doing what it is supposed to do. Your being able to see this happening is good news, not bad. From what I understand, MoS2 doesn't "build up" on a metal surface because it can't readily stick to itself.
You don't need to add more MoS2 to your current oil. Once the the MoS2 has plated out a "virgin" engine, the only MoS2 that the engine needs is just enough to replace the plating that is "sacrificed" during normal engine use. This is reason that most MoS2 users (myself included) cut the dose in half after the first can, which makes it very economical to use over the long haul.


I wasn't really concerned about the filter removing the particles. I think the OEM filter is good for 20 micron particles and the MoS2 is supposedly sub-micron, but it is just curious that more than 3000 miles into adding the MoS2, it still seems to be consumed or used, whether in continued plating or some other process. But that I seem to still be noticing continued improvements in smoother and quieter running makes me think I should add more MoS2 back in.

Interesting that my experienced has happened in a 1.8 liter engine. I might have expected something like this in a small block Chevy, but there just isn't that much internal surface to plate, especially if MoS2 can't stick to itself.

 

[Dominic]

Originally Posted By: Hollow
I'm really enjoying the fact that this thread has pretty much nothing to do with my original post.

For background read my post.

Otherwise,
Does any one have a recommendation on whether to add MOS2 to a 10k QSUD run or a 5K QSAD run?


I am trying the same experiment on my 2007 2.5i - I will let you know what the outcome is. I am trying to reduce the oil consumption some, as I currently still burn about 1qt per 1500 miles. I will be adding it and running a full can starting at 110K miles sometime in the next few months.

 

[Finz]

Funny you should mention that Injured... I added MoS2 to all vehicles in my sig over the last few months and the 04 civic had the most notable improvement by far and it has the smallest engine (1.7l I believe) of the lot.

Perhaps because it is so small, the benefits/plating were able to occur that much more quickly...?

With regard to color change, I wonder if it's nothing more than the oil's own discoloration offsetting the coloration of the MoS2 as it runs...?

 

[Injured_Again]

Originally Posted By: Finz
Funny you should mention that Injured... I added MoS2 to all vehicles in my sig over the last few months and the 04 civic had the most notable improvement by far and it has the smallest engine (1.7l I believe) of the lot.

Perhaps because it is so small, the benefits/plating were able to occur that much more quickly...?

With regard to color change, I wonder if it's nothing more than the oil's own discoloration offsetting the coloration of the MoS2 as it runs...?


It may be that smaller engines have more wear? You often hear stories of a small block Chevy motor going a couple of hundred thousand miles, but almost never hear that about a sub-2 liter motor. Maybe it's the combination of higher revs that are needed, plus just the geometry of smaller pistons and rings, and the tighter arc they form, that causes more wear?

 

[Finz]

Could very well be and I hadn't thought of it in those terms...

I was thinking, very simply, that there was just a smaller area (aggregate surface areas) for the MoS2 to bond with combined with what is probably a hotter running engine. - might expedite the process...?

I don't know...

But I do know that the 04 civic loves the stuff (about 4,000 miles into first dose)

Jury is still out on the 05 Accord although I'm beginning to think (or convince myself?) that it is starting a bit faster (maybe 750 miles since first dose)