2014 H-D Touring Line - "Project Rushmore"
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Liquid-cooled heads on air-cooled cylinders is a novel and practical idea, no matter who uses it (though it's revolutionary, however). Didn't Porsche run just such an arrangement for years on some of their Boxer engines?
It seems from the patent documents that HD's implementation is a bit more basic that BMWs. For instance the BMW clearly has water passages in the block and an engine driven water pump. There appear to be more complex passages in the head and a passage in the cylinder that allows water to reach the top of the cylinder.
Also pictures of the BMW engine show the cooling fins to be rather vestigial in my opinion.
HD by contrast the patent documents show a simple horseshoe passage. It looks as if the water is completely contained in the head as far as the engine is concerned.
I've read several times over the years that HD does not believe their customers will accept radiators that can be seen, I suspect they are right. With that in mind they tried to design something that could be hidden and not change the look of the bike yet still addresses a need. I think they have done a good job of it based on pictures and reading.
Apparently Porsche did use water cooled heads on the 959 and a version of 962 race car as well as a 911GT1 they are all quite rare as I understand it.
Also pictures of the BMW engine show the cooling fins to be rather vestigial in my opinion.
HD by contrast the patent documents show a simple horseshoe passage. It looks as if the water is completely contained in the head as far as the engine is concerned.
I've read several times over the years that HD does not believe their customers will accept radiators that can be seen, I suspect they are right. With that in mind they tried to design something that could be hidden and not change the look of the bike yet still addresses a need. I think they have done a good job of it based on pictures and reading.
Apparently Porsche did use water cooled heads on the 959 and a version of 962 race car as well as a 911GT1 they are all quite rare as I understand it.
Since they were in there already, redesigning the heads to accomodate the new coolant passages, it's a shame they didn't see fit to add four-valve heads too (as Yamaha have on their large pushrods twins), could have added yet more power.....
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Erik has a nice looking bike!
I have to wonder why Harley doesn't put the V-Rod motor (or a derivative) in a touring bike. Stiffen up the chassis a bit and a few other updates, I think they would have a winner. But that's just me thinking out loud.
I have said this since day one when the V-rod came out, along with several other mechanics and riders I know.
It is a popular enough idea that other people like Randy Aron of cycle visions and others have capitalized on it with Road-Rod and V-rod bagger kits.
I came extremely close to doing just this, next year.
http://www.cyclevisions.com/index.php/cvstore/cv-products/road-rod-conversion-kit.html?limit=all
Instead I ran across a good deal on a new zero miles 2011 FJR still on the show floor including the tour pack.
I have worked on HDs and other motorcycles since the early '90s and owned a few HDs and a little of everything else. Each has their own place on the market and riders for them. Two wheels is two wheels, it is still the same breeze, same road and we are all looking for the one who didn't see us.
Harley seems to run about 15-20 years on a engine platform.
Panhead 1948 - 1965, 17yrs
Shovelhead 1966 - 1984, 18yrs
Evolution 1984 - 1999(2000 if you count the FXR4), 15/16yrs
Twincam 1999 - 2014(present model lineup) 16yrs
The Twincam is at its end of life. HD has updated it several times now to keep pace with its competitors performance wise by increasing its size 88", 95", 96", 103" and 110" variations. I see "Project Rushmore" being used as a easy way to cheaply introduce some new ideas(liquid cooling) to see how they are received by their customers and as a way of slightly extending the use of a aging engine platform while they see the results of those ideas.
So now how far out does that put the next generation engine platform? Is there going to be a group of people out there left with what is likely to be a short lived liquid cooled Twincam after its replacement comes to market? It's rarely ever fun to own a short lived version of a engine. Unless Harley decides to push the Twincam past the 18 or 20 year mark.
Erik has a nice looking bike!
I have to wonder why Harley doesn't put the V-Rod motor (or a derivative) in a touring bike. Stiffen up the chassis a bit and a few other updates, I think they would have a winner. But that's just me thinking out loud.
I have said this since day one when the V-rod came out, along with several other mechanics and riders I know.
It is a popular enough idea that other people like Randy Aron of cycle visions and others have capitalized on it with Road-Rod and V-rod bagger kits.
I came extremely close to doing just this, next year.
http://www.cyclevisions.com/index.php/cvstore/cv-products/road-rod-conversion-kit.html?limit=all
Instead I ran across a good deal on a new zero miles 2011 FJR still on the show floor including the tour pack.
I have worked on HDs and other motorcycles since the early '90s and owned a few HDs and a little of everything else. Each has their own place on the market and riders for them. Two wheels is two wheels, it is still the same breeze, same road and we are all looking for the one who didn't see us.
Harley seems to run about 15-20 years on a engine platform.
Panhead 1948 - 1965, 17yrs
Shovelhead 1966 - 1984, 18yrs
Evolution 1984 - 1999(2000 if you count the FXR4), 15/16yrs
Twincam 1999 - 2014(present model lineup) 16yrs
The Twincam is at its end of life. HD has updated it several times now to keep pace with its competitors performance wise by increasing its size 88", 95", 96", 103" and 110" variations. I see "Project Rushmore" being used as a easy way to cheaply introduce some new ideas(liquid cooling) to see how they are received by their customers and as a way of slightly extending the use of a aging engine platform while they see the results of those ideas.
So now how far out does that put the next generation engine platform? Is there going to be a group of people out there left with what is likely to be a short lived liquid cooled Twincam after its replacement comes to market? It's rarely ever fun to own a short lived version of a engine. Unless Harley decides to push the Twincam past the 18 or 20 year mark.
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Erik has a nice looking bike!
I have to wonder why Harley doesn't put the V-Rod motor (or a derivative) in a touring bike. Stiffen up the chassis a bit and a few other updates, I think they would have a winner. But that's just me thinking out loud.
I'll thank you for him... Erik is a lot of fun too... he laughs at all my Harley jokes...
Makes sense to me but any improvement to the current motor won't pass mustard with the old
guard out in HD world... in fact I was told by the dealer that all thought the Deuce sports
modern fuel injected its the least popular model in the HD line because the majority
feel HD doesn't need improvement...
Erik has a nice looking bike!
I have to wonder why Harley doesn't put the V-Rod motor (or a derivative) in a touring bike. Stiffen up the chassis a bit and a few other updates, I think they would have a winner. But that's just me thinking out loud.
I'll thank you for him... Erik is a lot of fun too... he laughs at all my Harley jokes...
Makes sense to me but any improvement to the current motor won't pass mustard with the old
guard out in HD world... in fact I was told by the dealer that all thought the Deuce sports
modern fuel injected its the least popular model in the HD line because the majority
feel HD doesn't need improvement...
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IMHO they could have gone with full liquid cooling already now but then again this is perhaps a first step to test these things on the Big Twin and easy to "expand".
For the future BT needs to remain 45 degree single crank pin layout as anything that would sound like a Vrod would just not do.
For the future BT needs to remain 45 degree single crank pin layout as anything that would sound like a Vrod would just not do.
Originally Posted By: Finn
....
For the future BT needs to remain 45 degree single crank pin layout as anything that would sound like a Vrod would just not do.
I agree they have to be very careful, it has to look and sound like a Big Twin or it will not sell. The challenge for Harley Davidson is not building something modern, it is incorporating the modern in a way that appears to be old...
....
For the future BT needs to remain 45 degree single crank pin layout as anything that would sound like a Vrod would just not do.
I agree they have to be very careful, it has to look and sound like a Big Twin or it will not sell. The challenge for Harley Davidson is not building something modern, it is incorporating the modern in a way that appears to be old...
Well considering that there were liquid cooled V twins as far back as the 1930's(Matchless V Twins), going fully liquid cooled is new and old at the same time.
Did Needles Highway, Iron Mountain Road and Custer State Park on a 2013 Road King 103 today (StreetGlides all gone).
Bike handled much better than the Electra Glide. Very much firmer and very capable. 103 pulls from idle to way too many without complaint.
Couldn't ask for anything else (except another 15 degrees F)
Bike handled much better than the Electra Glide. Very much firmer and very capable. 103 pulls from idle to way too many without complaint.
Couldn't ask for anything else (except another 15 degrees F)
harley could use coated alum cylinders as victory does, they dissapate heat better. IMO harley only wants to bling their bikes because its cheaper + easier. i had an 06 1200 sportster and wanted to trade, tried a superglide which is a big sportster with same poor brakes + suspension, rode a victory WOW no more harleys, i am now enjoying a great air cooled 106 cu in hammer!!!!!
Originally Posted By: whip
Irony,
When BMW introduces liquid cooled heads, they are lauded for the improvement while maintaining the tradition.
Harley introduces pretty much the same system, and they are chastised for being behind the times, and inferior.
Not so sure about that, BMW has had liquid cooled engines for years this is just new to the GS1200 and GSA1200.
I for one don't have any issues with HD whether they water cool or not. I actually prefer air/oil cooled personally.
Irony,
When BMW introduces liquid cooled heads, they are lauded for the improvement while maintaining the tradition.
Harley introduces pretty much the same system, and they are chastised for being behind the times, and inferior.
Not so sure about that, BMW has had liquid cooled engines for years this is just new to the GS1200 and GSA1200.
I for one don't have any issues with HD whether they water cool or not. I actually prefer air/oil cooled personally.
Lots of makers are using the coated cylinders. Triumph uses Nikasil plating for their air and oil cooled twins and they never get hot from what I have seen the forums or from experience. The polished "blingy" cases do reduce surface area which leads to poorer cooling also versus a natural cast engine. But for the longest time most of the naked Harleys were not coming with oil coolers. That right there would help a ton on the newer leaner burning twin cams.
Originally Posted By: benjy
harley could use coated alum cylinders as victory does, they dissapate heat better. IMO harley only wants to bling their bikes because its cheaper + easier. i had an 06 1200 sportster and wanted to trade, tried a superglide which is a big sportster with same poor brakes + suspension, rode a victory WOW no more harleys, i am now enjoying a great air cooled 106 cu in hammer!!!!!
Not all Dyna bikes handle poorly. The FXR was a wonderful model, one that Erik Buell helped design, and he knows a thing or two about handling. Also, I found the Dyna bikes to ride and corner better than the softails in my experience. Alot depends on having the right tire pressure and setting the preload. I test drove bike that rode hard because the preload was set for two up and loaded down riding, not solo.
harley could use coated alum cylinders as victory does, they dissapate heat better. IMO harley only wants to bling their bikes because its cheaper + easier. i had an 06 1200 sportster and wanted to trade, tried a superglide which is a big sportster with same poor brakes + suspension, rode a victory WOW no more harleys, i am now enjoying a great air cooled 106 cu in hammer!!!!!
Not all Dyna bikes handle poorly. The FXR was a wonderful model, one that Erik Buell helped design, and he knows a thing or two about handling. Also, I found the Dyna bikes to ride and corner better than the softails in my experience. Alot depends on having the right tire pressure and setting the preload. I test drove bike that rode hard because the preload was set for two up and loaded down riding, not solo.
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