Some people say thicker oil may be used as an engine ages. Is this true? Things like oil passages and oil pump ability would remain the same regardless of engine age.
Thanks,
John
Thanks,
John
Thicker oil as engine ages?
- Thread starter Hubjeep
- Start date
- Status
True, but the reasoning is that plain bearing clearances widen as the engine wears, making a thicker oil necessary.
All of the lubracation engineers I talk to recomend the grade recomended by the manufacture UNTILL the engine has worn to the point where oil consumption is a problem. Make sense to me as thicker oil increases wear so why go heavy too early. ed
I agree and my experience bears this out. I was having some consumption issues and leaky seals, finally got the seals replaced (170,000 miles) and went from a synthetic 10W30 to blend 15W40 thinking it would help. Well, after two OCIs with increased oil consumption I returned to the 10W30 and the consumtion has decreased to pre leak times,so far mcuh better, like the 100,000 mile era.
If the recommended weight works and no problems or excessive consumption then stick with it until absolutely necessary to try something else
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
You can even be "stuck" in certain circumstances. My engine shows the least wear with a 40 weight. I don't think that I can ever use a 50 weight until the engine is determined to be null and void given my climate. So I may just have to live with consumption as a part of operational expense if the engine ever sees that part of its life in my ownership. This is the situation with my Caravan. It can't tolerate heavier weight oil ...at least without complaint...too light ..it uses it.
There are some things that have no practical solution.
There are some things that have no practical solution.
Have you considered variations in NOACK% between various 40 weights? Not sure it varies as much as in 30 weight, but for one vehicle I went from a Maxlife NOACK listed at "less than 15" and consuming a quart every 1500 miles to a Synpower 10w30 with a listed NOACK of 8! Hopefully consumption is down (so far it is looking a lot better, but too few miles to tell). If not, may try thicker. Or could try Auto Rx.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Good point, TallPaul. I currently don't have consumption in my Jeep engines ..(Delvac 1 and Rotella synth in use) ..but it's something to remember. The future use oil in my Caravan will be PZ LL and my "Flex-Blend®" ..the LL appears to have a NOACK of 13% and HTHS of 4.3 (..although my blend will probably be around 3.x) if I can believe the Amsoil site that lists just about every oil out there. Personally ..I don't mind consumption (not that I look for it) as long as the engine provides good service otherwise. That is, consumption that was absent of fouled plugs or excessive blow by ...etc. A quart every 2-3k isn't bad at all ..just uncommon in todays engines.
After my camrys developed the "required" valve stem seal leakage (@120k for the 93 i4 and 150k for the 97 v6), it was recommended that I just move to 10w40 (from 10w30) to slow the seepage a bit. The leakage on the 93 was much more noticeable than it was on the 97, altho neither was what I would have considered excessive.
about 20k and 30k later, stem leakage appears to be virtually eliminated to the point that the familiar start-up puff is no more.
Now, I realize that valve stem seal leakage is not the only place to worry about, but neither engine has every seen any evidence of other issues that I can determine by pulling the plugs.
about 20k and 30k later, stem leakage appears to be virtually eliminated to the point that the familiar start-up puff is no more.
Now, I realize that valve stem seal leakage is not the only place to worry about, but neither engine has every seen any evidence of other issues that I can determine by pulling the plugs.
Yeah, if I get all my vehicles to stop consuming it will be lonely during those long stretches when I won't get to pour top up oil into the filler hole. That is what has been getting me into trouble with wiches' brews. Every time I top up there is this temptation to try something different. All those pretty bottles of additives on the shelves at the store are hard to pass up.
because it is counterproductive and not cost effective maybe?
after 160k of dino oil in my camry, switching to 10w40 dino doesn't cost one penny more.
160k of synthetic usage would put me well on the way to a downpayment on the next car......
Kenw, "synthetic" was never mentioned by me.
"Appropriate lubricant" would be a better term in place of "synthetic".
Customers who run a lube fined tuned for that engine family I4 and V6 have no problems with the VGS after as many miles.
"Appropriate lubricant" would be a better term in place of "synthetic".
Using oil analysis properly will save money not expend it. Annual oil analysis certainly won't break the bank and pays for itself in longevity and lowered operating costs that would allow you to save for the next camry !
Customers who run a lube fined tuned for that engine family I4 and V6 have no problems with the VGS after as many miles.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
No. VW and Audi manuals clearly differentiate between synthetic oil and mineral oil (At least until recently). It's just not clear from the US manual.
The manual shows two categories of suitable oil:
A = Energy conserving oil (= friction-modified synthetic oil). Approved for my '96 Audi are:
5W-30/5W-40/10W-30/10W-40
... for all temperatures, >+35 C
B = Multi-grade oil: blended, hydro-cracked, and mineral oil. Approved are:
5W-30*/5W-40/10W-30/10W-40
... for temperatures under 10 C.
*Comes with a warning
15W-40/15W-50/20W-40/20W-50
... for temperatures over -15 C.
5W-50/10W-50/10W-60
... for all temperatures, >+35 C
The oil that gave me the lowest oil temperatures and least oil consumption was Syntec 5W-50. The oil pump on my car is capable of putting out 200 psi of pressure. The engine does not seem to lose power or require more fuel when using an xW-50 oil compared to an xW-40 oil.
I'm not sure if the car would need a thicker oil as it gets more miles. My dad's 92 Toyota Camry 2.2L has over 155,000 miles. The valve cover gasket and spark plug tube seals were change however. It still runs on 10W-30 conventional and doesn't consume any or very little. But asking some people what do they think 20W-50 is good for, they tell me its good for high mileage engines. And that you shouldn't use it in a lower mileage car. Its probably that higher mileage engines tend to consume oil or has some leaks because seals are going bad. So using a thicker oil will significantly reduce oil consumption and leaks. Maybe thats where high mileage oils come into play. Same oil weight but just a bit thicker.I don't really think 75,000 miles is high mileage.
Yeah my VW service manual also gives a large range of oils that I can use. I believe thats the same chart found in all VW/Audi manuals. My initial interpretation about the section A(energy conserving) and section B(multigrade only) was that A is for VW approved oils and B is for non VW approved oils. I agree that the service manual is a bit confusing in terms of the chart. The 5W-30 notice says that it should be used for top off only and should not be used for chaning. I agree about the thicker oil in the engine didn't have much of effect on performance or gas mileage. I've tried 15W-40, 5W-30, and 5W-40. Didn't noticed much difference between them.
[ November 29, 2004, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: lpcmidst128 ]
Yeah my VW service manual also gives a large range of oils that I can use. I believe thats the same chart found in all VW/Audi manuals. My initial interpretation about the section A(energy conserving) and section B(multigrade only) was that A is for VW approved oils and B is for non VW approved oils. I agree that the service manual is a bit confusing in terms of the chart. The 5W-30 notice says that it should be used for top off only and should not be used for chaning. I agree about the thicker oil in the engine didn't have much of effect on performance or gas mileage. I've tried 15W-40, 5W-30, and 5W-40. Didn't noticed much difference between them.
[ November 29, 2004, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: lpcmidst128 ]
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
The VW and Audi oil chart is always tailored to the engine, and not a generic oil chart. Different viscosities are listed in these charts, depending on engine type and model year. In my manual, A refers only to oil that meets VW 500.00, while B refers to oil that meet VW VW 501.01 and VW 505.00 -- or any oil meeting "API Service SF or SG."
[ November 29, 2004, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Just in case I confused anyone, the passage I quoted is from a Mazda (13B rotary) manual. Not my VW manual. The owner's manual for my 70hp, '92 Nissan Sentra says almost exactly the same thing as the Mazda manual. So, I'm not sure that a 200 psi oil pump is mandatory in all thick viscosity applications.
Isn't the synthetic verses dino comment a moot point in this topic? The original question was related to an old loose engine and its circulatory (i.e. oil pump) system. I think synthetic only becomes relevant to this question when we start talking about extended drains or cold weather.
Isn't the synthetic verses dino comment a moot point in this topic? The original question was related to an old loose engine and its circulatory (i.e. oil pump) system. I think synthetic only becomes relevant to this question when we start talking about extended drains or cold weather.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
If it were a moot point, then VW and Audi 1.8 T engines wouldn't have sludge problems, which have necessitated a service bulletin regarding the use of adequate oil at US dealerships.
My dealer wanted to use 20W-50 dino oil in my back then new Audi A4. So yes, it is an issue.
Whether or not a pump that can put out 200 psi is a high pressure pump or not, I do not know. I guess oil pumps for cars that use low-HTHS oil can put out higher pressure.
I don't think an older engine requires thicker oil. If the rings are worn, thicker oil might lead to even higher oil consumption, as more oil gets blown by the rings. Worn valve stem seals may profit from thicker oil. I tend to believe that oil consumption with full syhthetics may be higher than with hydro-cracked oil, at least in my motor, which has pretty pathetic rings: puny low-tension rings all around.
I've had an oil pump failure on a VW Scirocco many years ago. The failure was spontaneous without any excessive oil consumption before that.
- Status
Similar threads
