ZDDP Debate

[Ben99GT]

I say if you're scared or even mildly apprehensive about RL, use something that doesn't scare you.

Mobil 1 10W-30 High Mileage - 3.62 cP HTHS viscosity & extra ZDDP. It's a GF-3 oil and likely has minimal or no VIIs.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.aspx

It's certainly a better suit for you than M1EP 10W-30.

 

[A_Harman]

What are the recommendations in your owner's manual for viscosity in your Evo?

 

[Ben99GT]

M1 ZDDP levels: http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Oil recommendation by Mitsubishi is 10/30 M1. The manual states "SL" or newer certification. Bet Mits never thought the ZDDP would go down though, haha. Maybe I will just try out the M1 HM 10/30. Its not that I don't want to try Redline, its just is it worth the extra $$$ in my application, when I can buy M1 HM for $24 for 5qts at the local store? Im just trying to use common sense vs. sales pitch. Unless I know for certain the latter would improve performace or protection for my car. Thats all. Here is a quote from Blackstone on my last Oil Test with the M1 EP 10/30.

JEFF: Looks like you've got a nice 2.0L engine under the hood of your Evo. Universal averages are based
on 3,000 miles on the oil, and your wear read at or close to those averages. The oil was in good shape
physically, containing no moisture, fuel, or coolant. Silicon read normally, which tells us the air filter is still
getting the job done. Insolubles give us an idea about the health of the oil filtration system and with a low
reading of 0.2%, we'd say your filter is working well. All in all, this looks like a great engine! No problem to
report at 42,800 miles.

Since I change my oil every 3K mainly for the Turbo sake, maybe the M1 HM may be not only the best cost effective choice, but "the" best choice??

Thoughts?

 

[aquariuscsm]

What about a high-zddp racing oil like Valvoline VR1 10W30? It`s only in the $4 a quart range too :^)

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
What about a high-zddp racing oil like Valvoline VR1 10W30? It`s only in the $4 a quart range too :^)


I don't believe the VR-1 is synthetic. I know they have a synthetic available, but not sure if its a "street" use grade. It really wouldn't matter since I am running a High Flow Cat anyway. It is also dificult to find where I live. If I have to order an oil, I would rather use Redliine, Amsoil, or RP XPR. I would like to have an oil I can get readily without the hassle of ordering. That is why I stuck with M1 thus far. You can buy it anywhere, heck I even saw a 5qt jug at a garage sale for goodness sake! its just EVERYWHERE!! haha.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I must admit, I have been really considering 4 oils for my next OC. 3 go against my "having to order" deal, but here they are:

1. RP XPR 5/30
2. Amsoil Racing 10/30
3. M1 HM 10/30
4. Redline 5/30

I know its not a really fair comparo to throw in the M1 HM with the bunch, but the ZDDP in the HM is more than adequate for my needs IMO, and the HTHS is on par with the other 3 listed. I emailed M1 about the EP vs HM for my car and will wait for a response from them before I decide. The Amsoil I can get for $10 per qt. RP XPR $12 p/qt and the M1 HM $24 for 5 qts at wallyworld and redline is $10 p/qt.

Not that I am a cheap skate, its just why buy something you don't really need? I just need some proof of what would be the best choice, and that is about as easy as a woman picking out a dress, haha.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I must admit, I have been really considering 4 oils for my next OC. 3 go against my "having to order" deal, but here they are:

1. RP XPR 5/30
2. Amsoil Racing 10/30
3. M1 HM 10/30
4. Redline 5/30

I know its not a really fair comparo to throw in the M1 HM with the bunch, but the ZDDP in the HM is more than adequate for my needs IMO, and the HTHS is on par with the other 3 listed. I emailed M1 about the EP vs HM for my car and will wait for a response from them before I decide. The Amsoil I can get for $10 per qt. RP XPR $12 p/qt and the M1 HM $24 for 5 qts at wallyworld and redline is $10 p/qt.

Not that I am a cheap skate, its just why buy something you don't really need? I just need some proof of what would be the best choice, and that is about as easy as a woman picking out a dress, haha.


I don't believe you are going to get the concrete proof you're looking for, but I do believe you just listed out some the stoutest 30-weight oils available right now. Motul 300V 5W-30 and HDEO 10W-30s being the others.

 

[Boss302fan]

VR1 is a very good conventional oil.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

VR-1 or Brad Penn I left out since I am looking for a 100% synthetic oil. I do realize that VR-1 is available in a synthetic but not sure which grades.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I must admit, I have been really considering 4 oils for my next OC. 3 go against my "having to order" deal, but here they are:

1. RP XPR 5/30
2. Amsoil Racing 10/30
3. M1 HM 10/30
4. Redline 5/30

I know its not a really fair comparo to throw in the M1 HM with the bunch, but the ZDDP in the HM is more than adequate for my needs IMO, and the HTHS is on par with the other 3 listed. I emailed M1 about the EP vs HM for my car and will wait for a response from them before I decide. The Amsoil I can get for $10 per qt. RP XPR $12 p/qt and the M1 HM $24 for 5 qts at wallyworld and redline is $10 p/qt.

Not that I am a cheap skate, its just why buy something you don't really need? I just need some proof of what would be the best choice, and that is about as easy as a woman picking out a dress, haha.



I understand your reluctance to make the plunge to $10/qt Redline. I go through the same debate with myself everytime I change the oil in my Camaro. I like the convenience of M1 because I can buy it in almost every town in the country. And HM is a good step up from the regular M1. Redline and AMSOil I have to buy from specialty shops or direct from the mfgr. This makes it too much of a ceremony for me just to keep some on hand to top off occasionally. Of the boutique oils RP, AMSOil, and Redline, I think Redline is the best.

Just compare HTHS numbers for the same grades, Redline gives the best protection at high temperatures and speeds. This is most important for highly-boosted turbo engines. Because of the mostly POE base stock, Redline can get multi-vis ratings with a minimum of VI Improver. This means less potential for deposit formation due to the VI polymer oxidizing at high temperature, and less viscosity breakdown when the oil is squeezed in the bearings.

On the other hand, if you're going to change oil every 3k miles, the M1 HM will do just fine. With RL, you could extend to 6k, and the cost would be the same. Much depends on the kind of driving you're planning to do. I think the M1 would be fine for dyno-tuning work, autocrossing, and normal street use. If you're planning to do a lot of track days, where you are running the engine continuously at high speeds and throttle openings for 20-30 minutes at a time, the Redline would be added insurance against heat-related problems.

I would stay away from dino oils for a highly-turbocharged gasoline engine.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

A Harman---What you described is mainly what I do, or will ever do with my Evo. Dyno tuning is essential whenever new tweaks are made to anything, so the car does see hours on the dyno at times. Lately not as much since money is tight. Same applies to AutoX. With State Pay Cuts I am forced to cut my AutoX time to nill. Brake pads and tires run me some money of which is not there now (Thanks Arnold

)

I don't ever do any time attack events in this car, I just don't have the skill for one, and two this is my daily driven car. Those type of Evos are more track dedicated cars.

I think the M1 HM may be the ticket. It has more ZDDP than the EP and as far as I know its a PAO based oil, not a Group 3. The only difference than that is the EP does have 50% more supersyn in it than HM. Now weather or not that will affect wear of the motor I am not sure. So with HM and EP there is a trade of. HM more ZDDP less Supersyn, EP more supersyn and less ZDDP.

Will there be any issues running HM M1 in a lower mileage car? Does the additives they put in HM for seal swelling affect anything? I do realize that the HM has a higher HTHS rating than the EP too, which I find kinda odd since the EP has 50% more supersyn. Isn't that M1's Viscosity stabilizer? You would think the HTHS would be higher in the EP because of the extra supersyn, not less.

Any thoughts on that aspect? Is EP primarily just designed for "Extended Drain Intervals" only, or is the additive package in EP more robust than we give it credit for?

I really don't want to order oils. Its such a pain in the butt. I have done it many times with past cars and it sucks. Unless your ordering like cases after cases and you always have some. For most, we dont do that. Its just too expensive to stock up like that. Besides, oil sitting in the garage for a year probably isn't a good idea anyway. The M1 HM is starting to look better to me. It has a great HTHS, is PAO based, Has SL rating which means more ZDDP and is $24 for 5 qts to boot.

Any arguements on that? Or Thoughts?

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Additionally, to the above mentioned, how about GC vs M1 HM? They seem to be very close in performance and quality. So let me add that to the mix to the above mentioned.

 

[A_Harman]

I think the HM over the EP, based on the significantly higher HTHS viscosity:

M1 HM 5W-30: 3.4cP
M1 HM 10W-30: 3.62cP
M1 EP 5W-30: 3.2cP
RL 5W-30: 3.8cP

See, the Redline wins again! But seriously, it doesn't seem like the EP is formulated to be an oil that stands high stress as well as HM. The HTHS of the EP 5w30 is less than the HM. And since you live in California (the warm part?) you could probably go year-round on 10w30 HM.

Another thing I was looking at was flash point:

M1 HM 5w30: 231C
M1 EP 5w30: 233C
RL 5w30: 252C

Redline is significantly higher. Higher flash point means less oil consumption and less possibility of oxidation and deposit formation in high temp zones such as the piston ring belts, undercrowns, and in the turbo bearings during a heat soak event. Once again, the EP doesn't have a significant advantage over the HM.

I wonder if the EP was formulated to give long drain intervals by having a secret ingredient that makes it act like it has higher TBN, even though it is limited to 1.0% ash. It seems like it's meant for long life in low output engines, not for high-temperature protection in high output engines, such as you have. I think the HM 10w30 wins by providing the highest level of protection for the money and by being readily available.

I don't know much about GC, other than it is German Castrol. Is this something that is commonly available in the local WalMart, or does it fall into the boutique oil category? Do you have a link to a spec sheet?

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I was on the fence with redline, I have been emailing Dave at Redline back and forth for a month over this. Just seems the UOA's and VOA's or Redliine are very inconsistant. Maybe that is because the testing process for ester based oils are different? I am not sure. Seems the redline has allot of Sodium and Silcon in VOA's which is odd conmpared to PAO based oils. So I am confused on that. Its like going from a PC to a MAC. MAC's are better but when your used to a PC its hard to make the switch. Castrol GC 0-30 specs are here:

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_syntec_usa.pdf

Thats all I could find. Seems like good stuff too. Even if its not green any longer haha.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The only difference than that is the EP does have 50% more supersyn in it than HM.


SuperSyn is just XOM's cutesy name for their high viscosity PAO. I'm guessing HM has less PAO but more of a polar Group V base oil which results in the much higher HTHS viscosity.

Quote:
Will there be any issues running HM M1 in a lower mileage car? Does the additives they put in HM for seal swelling affect anything?


Not according to M1.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I was on the fence with redline, I have been emailing Dave at Redline back and forth for a month over this. Just seems the UOA's and VOA's or Redliine are very inconsistant. Maybe that is because the testing process for ester based oils are different? I am not sure. Seems the redline has allot of Sodium and Silcon in VOA's which is odd conmpared to PAO based oils. So I am confused on that. Its like going from a PC to a MAC. MAC's are better but when your used to a PC its hard to make the switch.


Red Line's higher % of polar POEs competes with oxidation layers which often causes increased wear metals on the changeover, the higher the engine mileage usually the longer it takes to settle off. You also have to consider the limitations of emission spectroscopy. It's very possible for an oil to provide higher wear metals yet have less total volume of metal in the oil because of these limitations regarding particle sizes. The larger the particle sizes (severe wear) the lower % the UOA detects on an ever diminishing scale, and beyond 20 microns or so the UOA is essentially blind. Red Line, being a polar/high ZDDP oil is going going to scavenge or chelate better than most. I consider this a good thing but it can scare people who, IMO, misuse the UOA.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Mind you that the GC 0-30 mets ACEA A3 specs so it has to have at least a HTHS of 3.5 to get that rating.

 

[A_Harman]

Yep, I found the product data sheet for GC on the Castrol site. It's Syntec 0w30. They sure don't put much useful info on their data sheets, do they? No vis @40C, no HTHS number, no Flash Point. How are you supposed to compare? The only thing that stands out is the 100C vis, which is abnormally high for a -30. That is why many people like it.

Since it is in the Syntec family, that means it's probably not an oil with a lot of PAO. Syntec became famous (or infamous) when it was first introduced in the mid-90's. Many competing oil companies said it was not a true synthetic because it used a highly cracked and refined mineral base oil. Eventually, the API created a new category for it so they could call it synthetic.

I had experience with Syntec when it first came out in my '85 Corvette track car. In previous years, I had been running GTX 10w40. Then I switched to Syntec 5w50 for a year. I had been in the habit of dropping the oil pan in the off-season during those years, so I could see the difference in piston undercrown deposits between GTX and Syntec. It seemed to me at the time that the varnish deposits had grown during the year I had run Syntec. I switched back to GTX after that.

My opinion is the Syntec 0w30 would not be as good as M1 HM. Since the base stock of the Syntec is "fancified" Grp3, they need to add a lot of VI Improver to get the wide viscosity range. I'd bet the HTHS number for this oil is significantly less than for M1 HM because of it. And I'll bet the flash point is down around 205C. Too many unknowns for me to be comfortable. Why aren't they putting ALL the numbers in the Product Data Sheet?

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Well I know the HTHS has to be at lease 3.5 since it meets certain Euro specs. It has its own page dedicated here on BITOG its so popular. haha. I have emailed M1 about using their HM oil in my low mileage car, they have not responded yet. I am just concerned about the extra additves that are in the HM to clean the engine from sludge of high miles with dino oil, and the seal additives. I am not sure that makes a difference or not. I just don't want to add the HM and find out it has adverse affects??

From my understanding as well, the M1 HM is PAO not Group 3 is it safe to say that? Or do we really not know? So far the M1 HM really seems tough to beat for my application. Again, the Redline is awesome, but ordering it would be a hassle, the $10 per qt and shady looking VOA's and UOA's kinda make me think twice on that stuff.

Thoughts?