OCI/FCI of Many Years But With Low Miles

[Jim Rogers]

I have searched and found this topic discussed, but the time frames are usually much less (like a year or two) than I am considering (six years).

I am recently retired and will be putting lower miles on several vehicles, so I'm looking to decrease the number of oil changes I do. I'll be putting about 1,500 miles a year on each of four vehicles that I will discuss below.

I live in the upper Midwest, so average lows in Jan/Feb are usually below 0F, with the extremes being 5-10 days of -15 to -20F. Summers are hot, with extremes being 10-12 days over 100F in July/August.

I never short-trip and won't even start a vehicle if I'm not going to drive it long enough to get the oil temp over 212F (190-200F in the winter) for at least 10-15 minutes. Two of the vehicles have oil temp gauges, so I know how much to drive to get the oil in that range.

For many years I've done annual oil/filter changes with ST 5W-30 FS and a Wix filter on all these vehicles. I've just recently taken advantage of that awesome Amazon deal on Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30, so starting this spring they will all get that oil.

My questions revolve around the possibility of combining this fancy new Euro L Longlife oil I'll be getting with a higher quality filter with the idea that I might be able to run them both for 1,500 miles/year for 6 years (9,000 miles total).

From the discussions here on filters, it seems that many believe that synthetic (vs cellulose) media is important for a multiple year application, as is wire mesh backing, so that's what I'm looking at. All of the synthetics have very high mileage limits, so my 9,000 miles shouldn't be a problem, but is 6 years reasonable?

Same with the Pennzoil Euro L-- 9,000 miles is not a problem, but is 6 years ok?

Here are the vehicles, and the plans that I would like feedback on (and have some questions about). All of the engines have a reputation for being pretty easy on oil and not particularly picky about what oil they get. They are all still pretty low miles and use/burn no oil and have no other problems.

F150 w/ 4.2l pushrod V6, Dodge Grand Caravan C/V, 3.3l pushrod V6 (no towing; both do regular hauling but never exceeding their payload ratings):

Both take a 3600 filter, so I'm considering the Fram Endurance since the synthetic media and wire mesh backing would be what I've seen recommended for a long FCI.

Would a Fram FE3600 + Pennzoil Euro L 5W-30 last for a 6 year, 9,000 mile interval with no extreme duty and no short trips? Or, if the oil had to be changed at, say, three years, would the filter be ok for the full six years?

2 x 1985 Corvettes, totally stock L98 sbc (no racing, just normal street driving):

Same Pennzoil Euro L oil as for the vehicles above, but there is no Fram Endurance for this engine. There is the TG30, but I've seen some here say that that filter is not all that much different/better than the PH30. Seems like the XG30's have been discontinued as they are hard to find (and always seem to be expensive).

There are a few synthetic media filters for this engine (e.g., Boss PBL15313, Ecoguard S1513, etc.) but pretty much all of the synthetics that would fit a sbc either have had little discussion here (e.g., the Ecogard Synthetic) or get luke-warm reviews (e.g. the Purolators).

So, is there any filter for a sbc that would be suitable for a 6-year, 9,000-mile FCI?

BTW, there's nothing more classic than a PH30 in a sbc, and I've seen some discussion here that both the PH30 and PH3600 are pretty decent filters for the money. I have no problem with things like fiber end caps or general lack of bling factor of the EG series, so if a Fram PH30 would work for 6 years/9,000 miles, that would be fine with me! Same for a PH3600 in the other vehicles.

Hope I've provided enough information to allow a response and look forward to any input you all might have!

Thanks!

 

[GMFan]

I’d worry about the oil filter rotting out from road salt during those 6 years. If these were my vehicles I’d just do an annual OCI with Supertech or whatever oil you get a sale on and call it a day. I like the frugal thinking but vehicles are too expensive in my opinion to skimp on a $25 oil change each year.

 

[Jim Rogers]

Salt won't be a problem as I have two other daily-driver cars that get used when the salt is heavy.

I am very price sensitive now that I'm retired, but also wouldn't mind saving the time. As per my other thread, I also have 11 motorcycles to maintain!

So, in my current old age and low-income state, just thought I might be able save a little time and money.

But I do get your point, and that's why I'm soliciting input here for this plan before I do it.

If it's a stupid idea, I'll drop it.

Edit: Note that that Euro L deal meant I got that oil for $11.30 a gallon-- way cheaper than even Super Tech!! Now that I bought that, it got me thinking about longer intervals...

 

[HawkeyeScott]

I had a classic car about 15 years ago. Tried to prolong OCIs because I rarely drove it, used good oil, always got it hot, etc. What always made me change the oil and filter earlier than I had planned is thinking about a filter media (Wix/Napa Gold) sitting wet with oil for a year, two years, whatever. So I'd change them out at something like 1200 miles. Then I'd dissect the filters and they were always okay.

That said, 6 years is a long time. My guess is the oil would stand a better chance of being okay after 6 years than even the greatest filter. Just a hunch though.

Maybe try two or three and see what everything looks like?

 

[bjboertje]

I think I would be concerned about that with a paper media filter. I think a synthetic media filter would be fine though.

 

[Jim Rogers]

I had a classic car about 15 years ago. Tried to prolong OCIs because I rarely drove it, used good oil, always got it hot, etc. What always made me change the oil and filter earlier than I had planned is thinking about a filter media (Wix/Napa Gold) sitting wet with oil for a year, two years, whatever. So I'd change them out at something like 1200 miles. Then I'd dissect the filters and they were always okay.

That said, 6 years is a long time. My guess is the oil would stand a better chance of being okay after 6 years than even the greatest filter. Just a hunch though.

Maybe try two or three and see what everything looks like?

Interestingly I tend to think about it the other way-- it seems to me that being immersed in oil helps with the preservation of the material. It's not drying, being exposed to water, etc.

Of course, there are other things in oil (like acid) that might be a problem, but presumably the media is deigned to be exposed to that. But I guess the question is for how long?

I've seen it recommended many times that two-year FCI is a no-brainer, especially with synthetic media. Someone on this forum who interacted with a Fram engineer said that he was told off the record that up to 5 years is ok.

So, I'm exploring the possibility.

You're probably right that experimentation is the best way to determine for sure what would happen, but thought I would check with the brain trust here first!

I think I would be concerned about that with a paper media filter. I think a synthetic media filter would be fine though.

So, I guess that would rule out the Fram EG's? If so, not surprising, I guess, as synthetic does seem to be the general recommendation for long FCI's.

 

[Sandstorm]

Chemicals exposed to extreme heat and cold cycles break down faster. This is a fact. I wouldn't wait 6 years.

 

[Jim Rogers]

Chemicals exposed to extreme heat and cold cycles break down faster. This is a fact. I wouldn't wait 6 years.

Thanks-- would you have any idea (or speculation) on how long a filter might be good for at 1,500 mi/year? Or a C3 Euro Oil?

 

[Sandstorm]

Thanks-- would you have any idea (or speculation) on how long a filter might be good for at 1,500 mi/year? Or a C3 Euro Oil?

3 years I would say but I would follow @53' Stude's recommendation as he has more expertise on this subject.

 

[Jim Rogers]

Thanks!

 

[bjboertje]

Chemicals exposed to extreme heat and cold cycles break down faster. This is a fact. I wouldn't wait 6 years.

Wouldn't the engine being run every day, then left to cool overnight be significantly more extreme heat and cold cycles?

 

[Sandstorm]

Wouldn't the engine being run every day, then left to cool overnight be significantly more extreme heat and cold cycles?

That's why it's wise to change your oil frequently when you use it more often.

 

[facility1]

run a good name brand synthetic (watch sales&rebates),change once a year with a reputable brand filter of choice,its good to do this as oil can degrade over time regardless of milage,,,make sure to pay attention to using a fuel/injector cleaner also,keep transmission fluid serviced,,good maintenance is proper to do if you plan on keeping vehicle a long time.

 

[Jim Rogers]

Some more background that prompted my question:

Here's @dnewton3 relaying the story of the Fram guy saying 3 years is "very doable," and he concludes that 5 years is "no threat." But that discussion was specifically about cellulose. Would that 5 years maybe go to 6 with a synthetic filter? Would a modern PH30 cellulose filter maybe go longer than 5 years? And in addition to the question on the filter, what about C3 Euro oil?


Here he repeats the Fram engineer's time estimate and also adds (emphasis mine):

"I've seen cellulose filters last far longer than 5 years and be OK. I'm not advocating for that, just telling you what I've seen."

So, maybe a PH30 can go 6 years! But again, that's cellulose. What about synthetic?


In response to dnewton3's comments, somebody said:

"Lots of guys (including myself) have vehicles that might only get 1000~1500 miles a year put on them. So they use a good full synthetic filter with a silicone ADBV and change the oil every year, but leave the filter on for 2 or 3 years. C&Ps of those filters show zero difference than if they were changed every year."

Those comments are also tantalizingly close to confirming my hypothesis, but it only draws positive conclusions about a three-year time period. But it does say at three years the filters look just like they did at one year-- what about a 4th? 5th?



All of the above comments are all 3-5 years old, so wondering if there's any experience with newer filters that perhaps might have some better ageing properties.

I do understand that perhaps no one would know the answer with any certainty, but just thought I'd throw the question out there to see if there was any information, ideas, or tests that I might have missed.

 

[Jim Rogers]

run a good name brand synthetic (watch sales&rebates),change once a year with a reputable brand filter of choice,its good to do this as oil can degrade over time regardless of milage,,,make sure to pay attention to using a fuel/injector cleaner also,keep transmission fluid serviced,,good maintenance is proper to do if you plan on keeping vehicle a long time.

Of course, that is very wise advice, and I've done exactly that for decades. Just wondering if it's possible to make some changes to that routine in the modern era with modern fluids and filter materials.

 

[zray1]

Your older cars and motorcycles are going to have a lot more combustion chamber blow-by than the modern vehicles. The blow by gasses and liquids are very very acidic. We alway recommend to owners that they change oil before letting their vehicle sit for months vs changing the oil at the beginning of the driving or riding season. This disposes of the acid laden oil before it can do any damage.

During my years in the classic motorcycle and classic car restoration business I’ve seen more than a few cases of main and rod bearings that were etched by acid content of the oil they were immersed in over the off season. perhaps UOA after the year one or two is advisable order to gauge the feasibility of your 6 year plan.

Z

PS: you have a lot of vehicles, any chance you can dispose of half of them. Or maybe start a museum ?

 

[Jim Rogers]

Your older cars and motorcycles are going to have a lot more combustion chamber blow-by than the modern vehicles. The blow by gasses and liquids are very very acidic. We alway recommend to owners that they change oil before letting their vehicle sit for months vs changing the oil at the beginning of the driving or riding season. This disposes of the acid laden oil before it can do any damage.

Thanks for that. The motorcycles are going to remain on the annual oil change plan as they are mostly all small displacement, high-revving engines and several of them are air-cooled.

FWIW, of the four vehicles described above, they are all relatively low miles, and the oil is always remarkably clean when I change them, so I don't think I have an inordinate amount of blow-by.

But your point is well taken.

Still wondering, though, how long a filter might last even if I did change the oil more regularly.

During my years in the classic motorcycle and classic car restoration business I’ve seen more than a few cases of main and rod bearings that were etched by acid content of the oil they were immersed in over the off season. perhaps UOA after the year one or two is advisable order to gauge the feasibility of your 6 year plan.

Yes, it's likely that a plan to do a sequence of UOA's and filter cuts to determine empirically how things might work out as time progresses is going to be the best course of action. As I said, just thought I'd consult the experts here to see if there was support for this plan before I even attempted it.

Z

PS: you have a lot of vehicles, any chance you can dispose of half of them. Or maybe start a museum ?

Ha! It would be the most boring museum in the world!

After the kids moved out, I built a 90x54 pole barn, and converted 1000 of those 5000 sq ft into a small residence for the me and the wife. So, I have plenty of garage space for storage and shop space to work on things.

Don't want to sell anything as I do like puttering around with all my toys.

Thanks again!

 

[kschachn]

Of course, there are other things in oil (like acid) that might be a problem, but presumably the media is deigned to be exposed to that. But I guess the question is for how long?

Unless the TBN of the oil has reached zero then the oil isn't acidic, and even then only if there is water in the oil.

 

[Jim Rogers]

Unless the TBN of the oil has reached zero then the oil isn't acidic, and even then only if there is water in the oil.

Yes, that's a good point I should have thought of before I posted that.

 

[subyski]

Similar situation and thoughts.
I have a Grand Caravan with the 3.8 V6 (just a bored/stroked 3.3). I've ran a 2200 mile OCI and FCI over 2 years and the filter and UOA looked fine. It was a Wix oil filter.

I have a BBC that runs the same PH30 size oil filter. I've used Purolator, Wix, ACDelco up to 3 year or so OCI/FCI but at very low mileage. I plan on doing a UOA in the Spring to see how the oil looks and change the filter. One thing I have considered is bumping up to a PH5 size filter. Fram does make an Ultra XG5 version of that filter (as you have mentioned, the XG30 is discontinued).

This person went 5 year OCI/FCI:

1992 Surburban Big Block - M1 10W-30 - 5 year OCI

From my 1992 Chevy Suburban 2500 w 7.4L engine. 57,000 total miles on unit. Truck spends most of it's life in a garage. This M1 10W-30 was at least a few years old before it went in August, 2011 - I think it was API SM. This truck went 5 years between changes, but only 1781 miles. Most of the...

bobistheoilguy.com

One concern I would have about the EG/TG is the fiber end caps. I have no issues running them for standard OCI over a year or so but have no idea what years would do to them, maybe nothing.