ZDDP Debate

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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The Photos from the Mustang are impressive. That is WITH Roller Rockers? and it did that? Wow. The thing is, isn't the Royal Purpler 5/20 used in that motor for 70K miles an API approved oil from RP? If it is, and Im pretty sure it is, then its "energy conserving" meaning it is on the low ZDDP side as well.


Most of Royal Purple's line is API SL, not SM. RP usually has close to 1000 ppm phosphorus, depending on the lab. SL's Energy Conserving cap is 800 ppm.

Originally Posted By: Royal Purple
Good Evening Robert,

We have held most of our motor oils back from API SM (most RP SAE motor oils are API SL) because of the lower amount of anti-wear additive allowed in API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. The reason for the API/ILSAC mandate of lower anti-wear is that certain components of anti-wear additive were shown to cause premature degradation of catalytic converters. And, OEMs are now mandated by the EPA to warranty the emission system separately from the power train. Rudimentary experimentation showed certain anti-wear additives do in fact degrade catalytic converters; however, the anti-wear additive was applied directly to the core of the cats. If enough oil is consumed in the combustion chamber (i.e. through poor piston ring seal and/or leaking valve seals), there can be a degradation in cat life. This is not an issue with Royal Purple motor oils. The OEMs are willing to trade the longevity of the engine for a possibility of extending the life of the catalytic converters. They are pretty sure that the engine will make it through the warranty period, though. We do not agree with reducing anti-wear protection for the engine and our SL formulations have shown zero problems with emissions systems during over 3 years with field testing by the US Border Patrol.

The 0W-40 and 5W-40 viscosity grade oils were formulated primarily for the European car market and the XW-40 weight oils are not subject to the anti-wear restriction. API and ILSAC are only concerned with 'Energy Conserving' viscosities (0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30).

One thing to keep in mind is that the API ratings represent formulation restrictions and performance minimums. Royal Purple API rated oils have always exceeded the API ratings. The API SM rating did force improvements in lesser quality oils, but merely restricted formulation concerning Royal Purple.

Thanks for inquiring about Royal Purple and have a great day!


Best Regards,

Christopher Barker
Tech Services
Royal Purple, Inc.
1 Royal Purple Ln.
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600


Quote:
According to RP, using their oil will "smooth out" metal surfaces. So in essence, if you have cams that look like your M1 cams and you switch to RP it should clean it up? Or what?


I do not believe for one second that RP will restore the cams in those pics at all. No oil will.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The Photos from the Mustang are impressive. That is WITH Roller Rockers? and it did that? Wow. The thing is, isn't the Royal Purpler 5/20 used in that motor for 70K miles an API approved oil from RP? If it is, and Im pretty sure it is, then its "energy conserving" meaning it is on the low ZDDP side as well.


Most of Royal Purple's line is API SL, not SM. RP usually has close to 1000 ppm phosphorus, depending on the lab. SL's Energy Conserving cap is 800 ppm.

Originally Posted By: Royal Purple
Good Evening Robert,

We have held most of our motor oils back from API SM (most RP SAE motor oils are API SL) because of the lower amount of anti-wear additive allowed in API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. The reason for the API/ILSAC mandate of lower anti-wear is that certain components of anti-wear additive were shown to cause premature degradation of catalytic converters. And, OEMs are now mandated by the EPA to warranty the emission system separately from the power train. Rudimentary experimentation showed certain anti-wear additives do in fact degrade catalytic converters; however, the anti-wear additive was applied directly to the core of the cats. If enough oil is consumed in the combustion chamber (i.e. through poor piston ring seal and/or leaking valve seals), there can be a degradation in cat life. This is not an issue with Royal Purple motor oils. The OEMs are willing to trade the longevity of the engine for a possibility of extending the life of the catalytic converters. They are pretty sure that the engine will make it through the warranty period, though. We do not agree with reducing anti-wear protection for the engine and our SL formulations have shown zero problems with emissions systems during over 3 years with field testing by the US Border Patrol.

The 0W-40 and 5W-40 viscosity grade oils were formulated primarily for the European car market and the XW-40 weight oils are not subject to the anti-wear restriction. API and ILSAC are only concerned with 'Energy Conserving' viscosities (0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30).

One thing to keep in mind is that the API ratings represent formulation restrictions and performance minimums. Royal Purple API rated oils have always exceeded the API ratings. The API SM rating did force improvements in lesser quality oils, but merely restricted formulation concerning Royal Purple.

Thanks for inquiring about Royal Purple and have a great day!


Best Regards,

Christopher Barker
Tech Services
Royal Purple, Inc.
1 Royal Purple Ln.
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600


Quote:
According to RP, using their oil will "smooth out" metal surfaces. So in essence, if you have cams that look like your M1 cams and you switch to RP it should clean it up? Or what?


I do not believe for one second that RP will restore the cams in those pics at all. No oil will.



Exactly what I am saying. RP says right there that their 5/20 is in the "energy conserving" group. I am sure that 5/20 has no more ZDDP in it than M1 has. I think + or - 100 ppm won't do that much harm to a cam. So there must be something else helping it out, not the ZDDP IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The Photos from the Mustang are impressive. That is WITH Roller Rockers? and it did that? Wow. The thing is, isn't the Royal Purpler 5/20 used in that motor for 70K miles an API approved oil from RP? If it is, and Im pretty sure it is, then its "energy conserving" meaning it is on the low ZDDP side as well.


Most of Royal Purple's line is API SL, not SM. RP usually has close to 1000 ppm phosphorus, depending on the lab. SL's Energy Conserving cap is 800 ppm.

Originally Posted By: Royal Purple
Good Evening Robert,

We have held most of our motor oils back from API SM (most RP SAE motor oils are API SL) because of the lower amount of anti-wear additive allowed in API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. The reason for the API/ILSAC mandate of lower anti-wear is that certain components of anti-wear additive were shown to cause premature degradation of catalytic converters. And, OEMs are now mandated by the EPA to warranty the emission system separately from the power train. Rudimentary experimentation showed certain anti-wear additives do in fact degrade catalytic converters; however, the anti-wear additive was applied directly to the core of the cats. If enough oil is consumed in the combustion chamber (i.e. through poor piston ring seal and/or leaking valve seals), there can be a degradation in cat life. This is not an issue with Royal Purple motor oils. The OEMs are willing to trade the longevity of the engine for a possibility of extending the life of the catalytic converters. They are pretty sure that the engine will make it through the warranty period, though. We do not agree with reducing anti-wear protection for the engine and our SL formulations have shown zero problems with emissions systems during over 3 years with field testing by the US Border Patrol.

The 0W-40 and 5W-40 viscosity grade oils were formulated primarily for the European car market and the XW-40 weight oils are not subject to the anti-wear restriction. API and ILSAC are only concerned with 'Energy Conserving' viscosities (0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30).

One thing to keep in mind is that the API ratings represent formulation restrictions and performance minimums. Royal Purple API rated oils have always exceeded the API ratings. The API SM rating did force improvements in lesser quality oils, but merely restricted formulation concerning Royal Purple.

Thanks for inquiring about Royal Purple and have a great day!


Best Regards,

Christopher Barker
Tech Services
Royal Purple, Inc.
1 Royal Purple Ln.
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600


Quote:
According to RP, using their oil will "smooth out" metal surfaces. So in essence, if you have cams that look like your M1 cams and you switch to RP it should clean it up? Or what?


I do not believe for one second that RP will restore the cams in those pics at all. No oil will.



Exactly what I am saying. RP says right there that their 5/20 is in the "energy conserving" group. I am sure that 5/20 has no more ZDDP in it than M1 has. I think + or - 100 ppm won't do that much harm to a cam. So there must be something else helping it out, not the ZDDP IMO.



It's not what you are saying at all, RP says right in the letter that they chose to remain API SL in their energy conserving (GF-4) grades because of anti-wear limitations imposed by that spec. RP's only API SM products are the non-energy conserving grades that don't impose the same ZDDP restrictions.

RP "energy conserving" ILSAC GF-4 grades (0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30) - API SL
RP "Euro" non-ILSAC grades (0W-40, 5W-40) - API SM

Why?

Originally Posted By: Royal Purple
We have held most of our motor oils back from API SM (most RP SAE motor oils are API SL) because of the lower amount of anti-wear additive allowed in API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils.


&

Originally Posted By: Royal Purple
The 0W-40 and 5W-40 viscosity grade oils were formulated primarily for the European car market and the XW-40 weight oils are not subject to the anti-wear restriction. API and ILSAC are only concerned with 'Energy Conserving' viscosities (0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30).


ILSAC GF-4 is the energy conserving specification. Royal Purple's entire reason for remaining SL in their GF-4 energy conserving viscosities is because of the 800 ppm cap placed by SM/GF-4.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I agree, all those ball bearing tests are bogus in my book. I just think the whole "race" oil hype really is just that, UNLESS your vehicle sees oil temps over 110C like all day long. Like in reacing. Over the counter Synthetics from M1, Penzoil, Valvoline, etc should be more than capable of withstanding up to 100C all day long with no issues. The Lack of ZDDP is really all that separated the 2 for street use. In that, most newer cars really don't need a ton of ZDDP anyway. In my Evo, there really isn't anywhere that a Race oil would really benefit me in day to day driving. It is true when I am on the dyno for hours at a time, the oil temps get around that 100C mark, but by that time, I usually turn the car off and let it cool down. When the oil temps drop we go back at it again. Then usually when I get home, I change the oil. Then I am good for another 3K. Am I right to assume this? I know many have their mind set because they try and justify the cost and exspense of their "race" oil. But in reality, driving with oil temps under 100C is it really needed? I think not. Arguements?

Over the counter oil is all we use. To say we brutilize it would be a gross understatement. In my personal passenger cars, and my muscle cars, I use over the counter lubes and filters.In the race cars, nor my personal cars, have I ever witnessed a lube realted failure of any kind.
 
Originally Posted By: RCR
Over the counter oil is all we use. To say we brutilize it would be a gross understatement. In my personal passenger cars, and my muscle cars, I use over the counter lubes and filters.In the race cars, nor my personal cars, have I ever witnessed a lube realted failure of any kind.


RCR - What kind of muscle? I have just recently given up the ZDDP oil fight on my 1970 Judge and started using regular off the shelf stuff (always have in my daily drivers). I have a pretty good stash of SL oil and have used it now for over a year. I am running an aggressive ramp mechanical cam (factory was hydraulic) with 300# open and 135# closed. So far no problems. I adjust valve lash about every two years normally and so far nothing is out of the ordinary, in fact it hasn't changed in the entire year. I am starting to wonder if I have fretted for nothing in the last 5 years or so. I have no desire to go to a roller in this car so I hope the SL (and later SM and now SN oils when my SL stash is depleted) are ok. Car sees everything... track, highway trips to shows (3.90 geared so hours at 4000 RPM), dyno fun days and a bit of daily driving in the summer. Cam was originally broken in on VR1 Racing dino 30 in 2004 and I used VR1 up until I ran out in 2008 or so. I am using Crower lifters and the cam is custom from Comp Cams.
 
Originally Posted By: marc1
Originally Posted By: RCR
Over the counter oil is all we use. To say we brutilize it would be a gross understatement. In my personal passenger cars, and my muscle cars, I use over the counter lubes and filters.In the race cars, nor my personal cars, have I ever witnessed a lube realted failure of any kind.


RCR - What kind of muscle? I have just recently given up the ZDDP oil fight on my 1970 Judge and started using regular off the shelf stuff (always have in my daily drivers). I have a pretty good stash of SL oil and have used it now for over a year. I am running an aggressive ramp mechanical cam (factory was hydraulic) with 300# open and 135# closed. So far no problems. I adjust valve lash about every two years normally and so far nothing is out of the ordinary, in fact it hasn't changed in the entire year. I am starting to wonder if I have fretted for nothing in the last 5 years or so. I have no desire to go to a roller in this car so I hope the SL (and later SM and now SN oils when my SL stash is depleted) are ok. Car sees everything... track, highway trips to shows (3.90 geared so hours at 4000 RPM), dyno fun days and a bit of daily driving in the summer. Cam was originally broken in on VR1 Racing dino 30 in 2004 and I used VR1 up until I ran out in 2008 or so. I am using Crower lifters and the cam is custom from Comp Cams.

65 GTO 389, 69 Z28, 2004 Corvette all on Shaeffers Oils. The 65 and 69 both have aggressive cams. I run half 10-30 and half 20-50 Shaeffers in those two. The Vette gets nothing but Shaeffers 5-30.In the shop all we use is Pennzoil Ultra.
 
We all must get conflicting stories from RP then. When I inquired about their 5/30 and 10/30 street oils, I was told it was 900-1000ppm of ZDDP. That is what M1 has. So to me, unless your running the 5/20 XPR your not getting any more ZDDP than M1 oils sold for much cheaper.

If those mustang cam pics was 5/20 XPR vs. M1 standard issue, than thats not much of a fair contest.

If they were both street oils utilizing pretty much (+ or - 100ppm ZDDP) the same amounts of ZDDP then it must be something else in the oil package that is helping.

I will see if I can find my pics of my OEM cams on Royal Purple 10/30 that look just like those Mustang Cams on M1. I am running Race cams in my car now, using M1 EP and no issues at all.

Is exactly why this site gets people so confused. So many conflicting stories. What works for one person, doesn't necessarily mean it will work for the next IMO.
 
Occasionally, when on sale, I have used Rotella 15w40 (DEO) as well. I have 6 litres of the 10w40 Shell left... one more year... then I'll be onto SM/SN oils.
 
Originally Posted By: RCR
65 GTO 389, 69 Z28, 2004 Corvette all on Shaeffers Oils. The 65 and 69 both have aggressive cams. I run half 10-30 and half 20-50 Shaeffers in those two. The Vette gets nothing but Shaeffers 5-30.In the shop all we use is Pennzoil Ultra.


The Shaeffers site is giving my browser trouble... is that dino or syn I can't check. I have only run dino to date... I am not adverse to syn (except for the cost in my daily driver, see other posts), it is just the way it has worked out on this car so far.
 
Originally Posted By: marc1
Originally Posted By: RCR
65 GTO 389, 69 Z28, 2004 Corvette all on Shaeffers Oils. The 65 and 69 both have aggressive cams. I run half 10-30 and half 20-50 Shaeffers in those two. The Vette gets nothing but Shaeffers 5-30.In the shop all we use is Pennzoil Ultra.


The Shaeffers site is giving my browser trouble... is that dino or syn I can't check. I have only run dino to date... I am not adverse to syn (except for the cost in my daily driver, see other posts), it is just the way it has worked out on this car so far.

I run conventional 5-30 and 10-30 series 7000. The 20-50 is a synthetic.
As for the subject of this thread and ZDDP. There are superior modern anti wear agents at work in todays oils. Too much ZDDP is a really bad thing guys.
 
Originally Posted By: RCR
Originally Posted By: marc1
Originally Posted By: RCR
65 GTO 389, 69 Z28, 2004 Corvette all on Shaeffers Oils. The 65 and 69 both have aggressive cams. I run half 10-30 and half 20-50 Shaeffers in those two. The Vette gets nothing but Shaeffers 5-30.In the shop all we use is Pennzoil Ultra.


The Shaeffers site is giving my browser trouble... is that dino or syn I can't check. I have only run dino to date... I am not adverse to syn (except for the cost in my daily driver, see other posts), it is just the way it has worked out on this car so far.

I run conventional 5-30 and 10-30 series 7000. The 20-50 is a synthetic.
As for the subject of this thread and ZDDP. There are superior modern anti wear agents at work in todays oils. Too much ZDDP is a really bad thing guys.


How so?
 
If I gave you a jug of 100% ZDDP, would that be the best lube for your car? Maybe 80% ZDDP? Of course not. You should research API or ILSAC libraries as both have done some fine work in this exact area and have published their findings for your enjoyment.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I was told it was 900-1000ppm of ZDDP. That is what M1 has.


M1 has an 800 ppm LIMIT placed on it by SM/GF-4.

Quote:
If those mustang cam pics was 5/20 XPR vs. M1 standard issue, than thats not much of a fair contest.


I provided the link, it was regular 5W-20.

Quote:
If they were both street oils utilizing pretty much (+ or - 100ppm ZDDP) the same amounts of ZDDP then it must be something else in the oil package that is helping.


Even if the extra 100 ppm was all that was needed to prevent the majority of the wear?

Quote:
I will see if I can find my pics of my OEM cams on Royal Purple 10/30 that look just like those Mustang Cams on M1. I am running Race cams in my car now, using M1 EP and no issues at all.


That was a 4.6L Mustang engine, I've been in many of these engines. The M1 cam wear was typical of cam lobe wear I've personally observed from M1, Motorcraft, Castrol run 4.6s that are run fairly hard.
 
Originally Posted By: RCR
If I gave you a jug of 100% ZDDP, would that be the best lube for your car? Maybe 80% ZDDP? Of course not.


Please point out where anyone has made an argument even remotely along these lines.

ZDDP is so outdated, yet all of the mainstream motor oils are still using it as their primary anti-wear agent and modern HDEOs are still generally running 1000+ ppm P & Zn.

Sure, there are other anti-wear/BL agents out there but they don't seem to be too commonplace in motor oils yet. Fuchs Titan GT1 0W-20 is the only example I am aware of.
 
ZDDP is not "outdated" just because it has been around for ~68 years. But the ash from the Zn and the P and S are problems with very modern emission systems. Boron compounds can be synergistic with (lower) concentrations of ZDDP in an AW and antioxidant function (reference available).
Too much ZDDP is clearly "bad". I can provide references to the effect that excessive quantities can cause cam follower "chunking". A paper written by 3 GM engineers ~10yrs ago concluded that quantities of ZDDP equal to 500-800 ppm phosphorus were sufficient EXCEPT for breakin of flat cam followers with high spring pressures.
That said, I like about twice as much in oil I use if the emission system doesn't mind (i.e. the warranty).


Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
A paper written by 3 GM engineers ~10yrs ago concluded that quantities of ZDDP equal to 500-800 ppm phosphorus were sufficient EXCEPT for breakin of flat cam followers with high spring pressures.


I've heard much about it, but sufficient for what? Is "sufficient" optimal, or just a good compromise between engine wear and emission systems warranty concerns?
 
Almost exactly a year ago, there was another ZDDP thread?

It had a decent article attached to it with some historical background and quotes from industry folks on the topic of ZDDP and flat-tappet cams.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1681260&page=1

It's not hard to get 1200ppm ZDDP motor oil today. And you don't have to get special race oils or aftermarket oil additives.

Sure there are more modern, more expensive EP additives formulated in to motor oils these days, but those are not widely publicized as the ZDDP content can often be found in product data sheets. So it seems reasonable to me that in order to insure a commonly accepted safe EP level as utilized by a performance push rod V8; simply select the product with an accompanying data sheet where ZDDP is advertised at 1200ppm.

To me, it's just cheap insurance that my modified push rod V8 has 1200ppm ZDDP.

If I'm wrong, no big deal. If I'm right, it may be a BIG costly deal.

Better safe than sorry.
 
I'm sorry I can't attach a .pdf to these posts. It was written before the advent of diesel catalysts and before the GF-5 era. It said 500-800ppm phosphorus was enough to prevent abnormal wear, but it was a "meta-study" - a summary of other studies.
I was curious enough to pay $15 to download it from SAE.

Charlie
 
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