what oil additive for sludge prevention?

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"Ron, yes unfortunately, there is a good bit of misinformation in some of what you post."

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. I've had many gasoline vehicles/bikes over the years and have yet had one that did not turn the oil near black in 3000 miles. This includes GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota, Kawasaki, Yamaha... So perhaps there is this magic clean engine out there, but I have not (nor do I want to) see it. Clean oil - clean engine does not add up.

If you are suggesting sludge and varnish are not problems why then are there standards for low temperature sludge, and why are they tightening those standards in GF-5? I would suggest it is a problem and more likely with synthetics than group II's.

Appreciate this may not be popular with all the BITOG folk who have talked themselves round and round the same products for years and convinced themselves by repeating the same thing over and over again that they are truths.

PP is a prime example. This is the greatest oil since sliced bread, and it is cheap! Now they find out it is really group III. Suspect there are a bunch of BITOG folk with broken ankles from jumping on and off the PP bandwagon.

There are a few things here that keep get spoken of as unquestionable truths:

UOA is essential
EOCI are great with synthetics
Group IV's are great, and Group III is bad
High TBN's are great
The XXw number needs to be high if it does not snow
Auto-RX is a legitimate product (and should be added to your oil before you drive off the new car lot)
VOA is meaningless - and clean oil is good
Oil has magic properties that can't be measured with specifications

I would suggest all BITOG propogated myths.... So talk about spreading misinformation!




Ron:

This response demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. Look at that list you created, alleged BITOG myths which you ascribe to a presumed hazy group of BITOG insiders as if "they" have all unconditionally bought into all of them. Let's break it down (the numbered, italicised statements are from your list):

1. UOA is essential. This is a generality that is far from "settled" amongst BITOG membership. UOA might be essential, depending upon one's oil use and OCI strategy. Then again, it may not be. If you're a dedicated 3/3 dino user, UOA is most certainly not "essential" by any fair meaning of the word, though it may be helpful for catching insidious slow-building problems (like a coolant leak). Again, anything but consensus on that here.

2. EOCI are great with synthetics. What do you mean by "great"? Longer OCIs may or may not be an effective strategy, depending upon the siutation. I went 13 months and 10k miles with GC on my wife's Sequoia and got great UOA results (and the engine looks clean inside, and so did the old oil when it came out, btw). Would I recommend this OCI for everyone? No way. Extended OCI may be "great" for some users in some circumstances (which for brevity I won't bog down with here). Again, the generality of your sweeping statement renders it largely meaningless, and it actually approaches misleading (though I'm not saying that's your design -- I hope).

3. Group IV's are great, and Group III is bad
High TBN's are great
. What's "great"? What's "bad"? And what's "high" w/r/t TBN? This sweeper is further off in that much of the resistance to G-IIIs, and this is my own opinion (but tell me if you think I'm really wrong), arises from the infamous Castrol bait-and-switch shenanigans. Castrol's quiet switch to G-III infuriated many who felt cheated and deceived having thought they were getting one thing when they were suddenly getting another. I was among those people. I can now see that G-IIIs for the most part perform perfectly well and are a competitive group of oils. Still however, I don't fault some for wanting what they want. Again, I don't see any "BITOG insider" consensus on this issue. Many of the most senior and respected members are happy G-III users (Patman is using it, Terry Dyson has recommended that I try a certain G-III, and so forth).

4. The XXw number needs to be high if it does not snow This isn't a matter of interpretation -- I just don't see that "trend" or "consensus" at all.

5. Auto-RX is a legitimate product (and should be added to your oil before you drive off the new car lot). Well, that's two assertions, but both reflect overgeneralization of the sort that's your pattern. I'll give you the first -- I think a lot of members do think it's a legit product (and I am among them). But there's a lot more to it, for example, the product is sometimes misused and certainly misunderstood. Misuse and misunderstanding have led to some discussion of the efficacy of the product. Many "insiders", right or wrong, question the value of the product. As to the "new car showroom" thing, that's definitely a minority position. It gets voiced from time to time, but it's hardly "accepted doctrine."

6. VOA is meaningless - and clean oil is good Where did this come from -- at least the first part??? Many of us find VOAs to be interesting and useful. Again, I see no dominant consensus to this effect. Once again, maybe if you were not so sweepingly general, we might be able to discern something in your statement, but as it is, no.

7. Oil has magic properties that can't be measured with specifications. Come on now. Admittedly, this isn't one of your usual generalities, but it is still objectionable in context. This is a position most often seen from new members who have much to learn and a headfull of pre-conceived notions they don't want to let go of. This is anything but a dominant accepted idea within the BITOG inner circle.

Say now, have I been around long enough to apply for Inner Circle membership???
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Oh yeah, for those of you wondering -- this is just a less fattening way to spend my lunch time. . .
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Ron Said:
""It is true that group I is more likely to breakdown due to high temperature oxidation, and form sludge earlier. However, it can also hold it in suspension with the help of detergents.""

Not only High temp but LOW temp also, Remember what Allows a GPI to hold more "stuff" boils out over time in a IC engine, and IT will form gunk faster and more of it than it can hold.

Low temp in a IC engine is still hot enough to oxidize oils (sludge).

It is a double edge sword deal a GPI will hold more stuff but to a point which it will then FORM more gunk than it can hold.

Which is in far LESS miles than a GPII/GPIII will even start to form gunk.

The whole argument goes away when you get away from "straight" base stock properties and add in modern Add Paks and IC engine conditions Low and high temp BOTH cause oil breakdown.

bruce
 
I stated that earlier though not as well(nice to find out that you actually know what you think you know, thanks Bruce)but Ron hedged he grp 1 generality to try and be be right instead of accepting the correct answer. Isn't that why we're here and thanks to guys like Bruce and Terry for setting us straight now and then. Nice post Ekpolk. If a newbie came here in the last few weeks, he may think that Group Ir IIIs were the only way to go because of all Ron's threads. Those of us that have been here a while know that solvency is only part of the picture and that grp IIIs basically don't have enough to be considered a viable quality compared to grp IVs regardless of Ron's statements to the contrary. Misinformation abounds.
 
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I stated that earlier though not as well(nice to find out that you actually know what you think you know, thanks Bruce)but Ron hedged he grp 1 generality to try and be be right instead of accepting the correct answer. Isn't that why we're here and thanks to guys like Bruce and Terry for setting us straight now and then. Nice post Ekpolk. If a newbie came here in the last few weeks, he may think that Group Ir IIIs were the only way to go because of all Ron's threads. Those of us that have been here a while know that solvency is only part of the picture and that grp IIIs basically don't have enough to be considered a viable quality compared to grp IVs regardless of Ron's statements to the contrary. Misinformation abounds.




And your post takes the cake in that department. There is nearly no difference between group III's and IV's when it comes to sludge avoidance or sludge solvency. If anything group III's are beter.

I'm glad you think you are being saved from misinformation by the good o'l boys at BITOG, but there no evidence of it in that post.

I really have little to quibble with on Bruce's posts. He obviously knows his stuff from applying it on a daily basis. We may disagree a little on how fast the conventional oils oxidize and build up sludge. The really bad parts of group I oils vapourize in a short time after use in any case, and are not there to oxidize. And true those really volatile light ends are not there to dissolve sludge either. But the basic oil is still there and it does a good job when assisted by detergents.

As far as conventional oils being bloody awful and they should be condemmed from the face of the earth, explain that to someone who has run their turbine for 30 years or 200,000 hours on the same batch of group 1 oil with no problems at all. Thats 70 million miles at 35 mph. And there are essentially no (1%) additives in the oil.

I find it interesting that I came to this site thinking that synthetic oil was the only way to go. From the research that discussion here has prompted, I've become throughly convinced that synthetic oil, especially the overpriced ones, are a waste of money. If you can get a good price on a synthetic then why not if it meets SM Starburst, and has good properties.

But if you can't, just use good SM Starburst conventional oil, with a high VI and good CCS, and change the stuff regularly, and your engine will be clean, live long, and prosper!
 
This has been really informative. My son's car is a 4 cyl Toyota Camry, so sludge may or may not be a concern. But I have learned that it is solved by running Wally World or Mobil 1 full synthetic* at 5 or 6 K OCIs, depending on who is posting the advice, or a Group II oil at 3K OCIs. It appears to be saying AutoRX is really good stuff to use every so often in that car to clean out any residual sludge. Finally, Group 1 oils should not longer be used in any normal lubrication application (An opinion that I fully share).

Is this consensus? Remember this is only my conclusions about sludge, not any other lubrication topics.

* Actually any full synthetic at 5 or 6 K OCIs.
 
ekpolk, well said!!! Your reply was simply the most well writen responce I have seen in a long time! You obviously but some time and thought into it. Unlike most of my responces it was a pleasure to read and read very easily!!
 
To the Dodge Ram owner with the 4.7. Do not worry about the build up in the fill neck it is a non-issue. I assure you that when the valve cover is removed if the previous owner changed the oil on a regular basis it will be very clean!! The only time these engines have any foam anyplace else then the fill neck is when the head gasket goes out. The head gasket on these engines is lamanted steel so they seldom fail. It has been my experince with these engines that if you drive them less then 40 miles each way they do not get hot enough and the foam appears. Synthetic oil helped a lot when I owned my Dodge but not as much as driveing it. When the wife was the primary driver she seldom drove more then 10 miles and it was all around town. The foam issue was insane. When it became my truck I had a 40-50 mile drive each way to work on the HWY. I also switched back to synthetic. The foam never showed up when I was driveing it.

I was into my 4.7 modifying it often enough to know the engine was spotless inside and the oil always came out of the sump with no sign's of foam.This foam issue happens on any engine that has a fill tube that extends above or away from the engine. Composite materials make the problem even worse.
 
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I stated that earlier though not as well(nice to find out that you actually know what you think you know, thanks Bruce)but Ron hedged he grp 1 generality to try and be be right instead of accepting the correct answer. Isn't that why we're here and thanks to guys like Bruce and Terry for setting us straight now and then. Nice post Ekpolk. If a newbie came here in the last few weeks, he may think that Group Ir IIIs were the only way to go because of all Ron's threads. Those of us that have been here a while know that solvency is only part of the picture and that grp IIIs basically don't have enough to be considered a viable quality compared to grp IVs regardless of Ron's statements to the contrary. Misinformation abounds.




And your post takes the cake in that department. There is nearly no difference between group III's and IV's when it comes to sludge avoidance or sludge solvency. If anything group III's are beter.

I'm glad you think you are being saved from misinformation by the good o'l boys at BITOG, but there no evidence of it in that post.

I really have little to quibble with on Bruce's posts. He obviously knows his stuff from applying it on a daily basis. We may disagree a little on how fast the conventional oils oxidize and build up sludge. The really bad parts of group I oils vapourize in a short time after use in any case, and are not there to oxidize. And true those really volatile light ends are not there to dissolve sludge either. But the basic oil is still there and it does a good job when assisted by detergents.

As far as conventional oils being bloody awful and they should be condemmed from the face of the earth, explain that to someone who has run their turbine for 30 years or 200,000 hours on the same batch of group 1 oil with no problems at all. Thats 70 million miles at 35 mph. And there are essentially no (1%) additives in the oil.

I find it interesting that I came to this site thinking that synthetic oil was the only way to go. From the research that discussion here has prompted, I've become throughly convinced that synthetic oil, especially the overpriced ones, are a waste of money. If you can get a good price on a synthetic then why not if it meets SM Starburst, and has good properties.

But if you can't, just use good SM Starburst conventional oil, with a high VI and good CCS, and change the stuff regularly, and your engine will be clean, live long, and prosper!


My apologies Ron. Maybe you weren't hedging and just don't get that because something is sufficient under a certain set of conditions and vehicles that something else may actually be better under others or give you some margin for mishap or tardiness. It's been discussed so I'm not going to get into particulars again. Your contention Grp 3s being better than grp IVs at sludge prevention is ridiculous. I'm done.
 
Thanks for all the replys. This dodge filler neck was on my mind constantly. All while running mobil 1 for 20k. The reason I wrote this post was to consider very short oci's on dino with the best ad pack. I am still a little confused as to which oil is best suited. Seems group II dino makes more claims as being suited for killing sludge. Is group III more superior for engine cleanliness with a weaker ad pack than say dino oil with a stronger adpack? Is it the additives or the base stock that clean up an engine? Right now I'm sticking with synthetic (supertech) for shorter drain intervals, assuming group III is superior for this.
 
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(...snip...)
As far as conventional oils being bloody awful and they should be condemmed from the face of the earth, explain that to someone who has run their turbine for 30 years or 200,000 hours on the same batch of group 1 oil with no problems at all. Thats 70 million miles at 35 mph. And there are essentially no (1%) additives in the oil.

(...snip...)




Oh come on, Ron, stop that.

1) Who here ever said anything like, "conventional oils [are] bloody awful and they should be condemmed from the face of the earth"??? No one.

2) As to the rest, that's just silly. It's apples-to-aliens. Why don't you try some of that Group-I oil, and leave it in your car, and shoot for 75 million miles of use (well, just leave it in indefinitely). Yeah, you'll soon be looking for something that's good at dissolving sludge. . .
 
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It's been a while since the Toyota sludge issue went down but if I recall correctly Toyota's engineers tightened up the head coolant passages to create more heat in the combustion chamber to aid in emmisions compliance and fuel economy. The sludge issue was traced back to these modifications and later remodified to stop the sludging. How many cars were involved? I don't have that exact number but I can tell you this - it made the cover story in Automotive News and Toyota tried to stonewall the complaining customers, even those who had dealer maintained their cars to the letter of the maintenance schedule. IIRC there was Lexus cars involved too. It wasn't until websites like www.mysludgeduptoyota.com and others started springing up and garnering thousands of hits with comments like "well this is my last Toyota forever" that the company caved in and started warrantying the engines. I also think Toyota extended the warranty on the cars with the affected engines for longer than their normal warranty. If I got the number of cars affected wrong I apologize. I just remember thinking, after reading the story, that Toyota will be scratched off the family car shopping list. Can you imagine a Toyota dealer telling a hardcore bitoger that he hasn't properly oiled his car? And then denying the warranty? Scary thought. Cheers All!!! DV




The major "modyfication" by toyota was to go to 5000 miles intervals on all new models and install oil change remainder light that blinks at 4500 and lits non-stop ar 5000 miles.
 
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Thanks for all the replys. This dodge filler neck was on my mind constantly. All while running mobil 1 for 20k. The reason I wrote this post was to consider very short oci's on dino with the best ad pack. I am still a little confused as to which oil is best suited. Seems group II dino makes more claims as being suited for killing sludge. Is group III more superior for engine cleanliness with a weaker ad pack than say dino oil with a stronger adpack? Is it the additives or the base stock that clean up an engine? Right now I'm sticking with synthetic (supertech) for shorter drain intervals, assuming group III is superior for this.




James I think you are correct. A good group II SM Starburst with a good additive pack and changed frequently will give you as clean an engine as any synthetic. An example of that would be Mobil Clean 5000. I find it intesting they market that product (in the US), as it is such a different and in my opinion most cost effective approach.

Now keep in mind I have been arguing the conventional vs synthetic approach to keeping a clean engine with the blinders on. I do believe it is true, but there is more to good oil than a clean engine. You also need to be concerned about viscosity index and viscosity at colder temps and startup. In the wider viscosity ranges (eg 0w30, 0w20, 5w30), synthetics do offer some advantages. In the narrower ranges and especially 5w20, the advantags of synthetics are very slim if at all.

So, despite my opinions on keeping engines clean, I would encourage you to look at the whole product and your needs.

Do keep in mind that there are many good conventional oils, and it sure is not necessary to go to synthetics especially in the 5w20 grade.
 
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James I think you are correct. A good group II SM Starburst with a good additive pack and changed frequently will give you as clean an engine as any synthetic.




What's "frequently" mean Ron?

Remember, I'm a bystander here, not one of the contestants..
Only dawg *I* have in the fight is my car. And it ain't talkin'. Well, maybe it is talking after all. I've got Pennzoil dino Yellow Bottle SM 5W20 in my car with 4760 miles, and it is as clean as when I put it in labor Day weekend, both on a white napkin (barely darker on the napkin than on the stick) and on the stick. No one would say, looking at the oil, to change the oil. This car will not dirty the oil.

Is it using up the additive pack (I added no SLOB or VSOT)? Maybe, but for $30.00 for UOA with a TBN analysis, heck, I can change it 6 times.

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What's "frequently" mean Ron?





I would suggest the range for conventional oils is 3K to 5k miles. I prefer closer to 3K, but that range is probably fine without going to the bother and expense of UOA's.
 
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