What if both pilots become incapacitated?

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Yeah - you really think you can land a 737 on a road? Sure...That will just take the death toll up from "everybody on board" to "everybody on board PLUS every person in every car/truck/bus on that road for a couple miles".In the meantime, the FA was up in the cockpit for several minutes and COULD NOT FIGURE OUT how to descend the airplane or leave the holding pattern. That's an important point: with a commercial license, but no heavy jet experience, he couldn't apply his stick and rudder skills...and sat there helplessly as the airplane ran out of fuel.

A 737 has a yoke and rudder pedals. They are very simple to turn and descend. They fly just like a smaller airplane. For a pilot of smaller commercial planes, maneuvering would be a piece of cake in a 737. Nothing special about the roll rate or pitch rate commands in a 737.


Thanks.

As a commercial pilot, and former Navy Pilot, with over 30 years of flying, including 747, 757/767 and A320 type ratings, I know how a 737 works. I’ve flown the simulator.

I could fly one.

Despite having a commercial pilot license, this guy couldn’t.

And you’re living in a Walter Mitty fantasy if you think you can.

Again, if I could get you in the simulator for a few hours, I could probably teach you enough to be able to apply your understanding of yoke, rudder and throttle to a much more complex airplane.

But walk onto the flight deck cold?

No chance....

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: FowVay
We use these aircraft accidents for human factors training at my job. The Greek carrier was caused by the fuselage outflow valve not being set to 'auto' after an overnight maintenance check. The fuselage never pressurized and therefore the oxygen content inside the cabin was not enough to support life. When the O2 generators ran out of air (about 12 mins) everyone went to sleep and didn't wake up. The pilots have a separate O2 system but apparently never donned the masks.

As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.


That's just despicable. 1 moron forgets a valve, and 112 people die?

Never ceases to amaze me how arbitrary flight can be.

Im assuming something went wrong with the oxygen deploy that almost nobody managed to get oxygen before passing out?


Yep. One valve...left open by maintenance...and then a misidentification of the warning, followed by some issues with a language barrier between the crew, since they were from different countries and couldn't effectively communicate about the systems issue when the pressurization failed.

The masks deployed in the back. So, the passengers had oxygen.

Our masks in the cockpit are different, you reach down to grab it and put it on. It's used in flight for several reasons, and they don't just drop like the passenger masks.

But, this crew should be something to consider every time some new discount airline promises that they are using "fully trained and qualified crew", as they operate from a different country, with leases in a second country, and crew sourced from a third country to get around labor laws. This Helios crew was contracted out, outsourced, and did not operate effectively, despite thousands of flight hours.

One switch position.

That's all it takes.

Oh, and did you notice this data point? The Flight Attendant called "Mayday" five times on the radio...but because it was tuned to the air traffic control sector hundreds of miles behind them, ATC never heard the call...


So it was a complete Charlie Foxtrot from beginning to end. Incredible.

 

[tom slick]

Everything you need to know is on YouTube

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp


That's just despicable. 1 moron forgets a valve, and 112 people die?

Never ceases to amaze me how arbitrary flight can be.

Im assuming something went wrong with the oxygen deploy that almost nobody managed to get oxygen before passing out?


Yep. One valve...left open by maintenance...and then a misidentification of the warning, followed by some issues with a language barrier between the crew, since they were from different countries and couldn't effectively communicate about the systems issue when the pressurization failed.

The masks deployed in the back. So, the passengers had oxygen.

Our masks in the cockpit are different, you reach down to grab it and put it on. It's used in flight for several reasons, and they don't just drop like the passenger masks.

But, this crew should be something to consider every time some new discount airline promises that they are using "fully trained and qualified crew", as they operate from a different country, with leases in a second country, and crew sourced from a third country to get around labor laws. This Helios crew was contracted out, outsourced, and did not operate effectively, despite thousands of flight hours.

One switch position.

That's all it takes.

Oh, and did you notice this data point? The Flight Attendant called "Mayday" five times on the radio...but because it was tuned to the air traffic control sector hundreds of miles behind them, ATC never heard the call...


So it was a complete Charlie Foxtrot from beginning to end. Incredible.


Yeah...and while that's really frustrating, and really disappointing, there is usually a sequence of events, not just one thing, that leads to fatal mistakes...and if you want to characterize that as a CF, I won't disagree...

 

[DoubleWasp]

A lot of marine disasters go the same way. People sometimes think I'm loony when one thing goes wrong and I get really serious about figuring out what went wrong and reacting as quickly as I can when having people out on a boat.

But too many disasters read exactly this way. Tiny stupid stuff just adds up to disaster.

I read a lot of marine and aviation disaster reports, and it never ceases to amaze me how these things go down.

The worst for me were the DC-10 engine mount crashes. Incredible the slaughter a few lazy sacks of manure operating forklifts can do.

Have a lot of respect for you pilots. I'd probably lose my marbles if I tried to do your job for 5 minutes.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Everything you need to know is on YouTube

Interesting video. Clearly produced by someone experienced with MS Flight Simulator, not a real airplane.

Several small details are wrong - for example: "push this lever down" to lower the landing gear. That's not how it works in the airplane. You click on the gear lever in MS FS, but in a Boeing 737, or 757, you pull the lever out from the console, it takes several pounds of force, then lower it, using several pounds of force to overcome a detent. Just pushing down on the lever, even with several hundred pounds of force, won't get the gear down...an important point, missed by the video.

The presumption that "the radio will probably tuned to the correct frequency" wasn't true for either Helios 522, or for Payne Stewart's Lear Jet. Tuning it to 121.5 would have been better advice.

The presumption that "a call would go out for an experienced 737 pilot" is interesting. Would it? How? Does ATC have experienced pilots available at a moment's notice for EACH TRACON? I genuinely doubt it. So, as I said before, I don't think you're going to be getting experienced help.

The flap speed discussion is way off. Yes, you can extend them at the max speeds, and that would be my recommendation if I were coaching you, but you don't just go with "135 KTS" for a landing speed. Landing reference speed is a function of airplane type (737-700/800/900 have very different speeds) and gross weight. 135 KTS could be up to 30 KTS slow for a 737-900, leading to a crash, not a safe landing. Land well above the appropriate speed and the airplane isn't going to want to land, even at idle power...

There are other details that are off, but time doesn't permit me to go through them.

The video is a credible effort to describe how to land a plane, but it omits critical information, and makes assumptions that I think are wrong. You could study this video, and you would be better prepared, but not enough to land the plane safely. You would be able to crash it where ATC had you pointed, which is an improvement over what happened on Helios or Payne Stewart's Lear...

But of little comfort to you or the 100+ others about to crash...

 

[tom slick]

How far can you fly this plane?
All the way to the crash site!

 

[Win]

I hope it's readily apparent how to adjust the seat, or the pedals ....

Indulge my Walter Mitty fantasy for a moment ( and hoping it ends better than some of his did ) - I'm thinking I would want the autopilot off almost immediately, so I could try to learn the tactile feel of the airplane sooner, rather than the last three or four minutes before I have to execute the fine control to soften the crash ....

I think I would also want to know how much fuel the thing had, and how fast I was going through it, so I could have some reasoned choice about where and when I wanted to crash. I think you mentioned in another thread, you don't slip a heavy airplane. So I would want someplace that had wind straight down the runway ....

The flare would be the thing that worries me the most. You're sitting a lot higher, and farther in front of the mains. than anything most of us have ever encountered, not to mention the speed. I just don't see a good outcome here ...

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Here’s my airplane. See the radio management panel?





I’ll wait...


Sorry, BITOG turned it 90 degrees, but I'm not certain that makes any difference...

I think the only person outside of commercial aviation who can work the FMCs and radio/transponder panels(which I think is in the pedestal below the throttles and FMC units) is someone who does a lot of flight simming. By a lot, I mean someone who built their own simulator or spends time in a commercial one.

I would imagine setting the autopilot would be the easy part - but someone needs to keep the plane within its limits.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: nthach


I would imagine setting the autopilot would be the easy part - but someone needs to keep the plane within its limits.


Amen... go easy on the barrel rolls...

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Win
I hope it's readily apparent how to adjust the seat, or the pedals ....

Indulge my Walter Mitty fantasy for a moment ( and hoping it ends better than some of his did ) - I'm thinking I would want the autopilot off almost immediately, so I could try to learn the tactile feel of the airplane sooner, rather than the last three or four minutes before I have to execute the fine control to soften the crash ....

I think I would also want to know how much fuel the thing had, and how fast I was going through it, so I could have some reasoned choice about where and when I wanted to crash. I think you mentioned in another thread, you don't slip a heavy airplane. So I would want someplace that had wind straight down the runway ....

The flare would be the thing that worries me the most. You're sitting a lot higher, and farther in front of the mains. than anything most of us have ever encountered, not to mention the speed. I just don't see a good outcome here ...


We do slip big jets, all the time. But we don't fly in a slip for long, typically, because it's uncomfortable. We cross control/slip, in the flare itself.

Put the slip in whenever you like, or just land it in a crab. The big jets don't mind either way, and in this instance, I wouldn't sweat it (it's not nearly as smooth a touchdown in a crab...but that doesn't matter for this discussion.)

Judging height isn't bad - big jets have radio altimeter call outs - "50" "40" "30" "20" "10". I would start the flare at 30 for most of them. Maybe 20 for a 737. Raise the nose about 2.5 degrees while closing the throttles.

Better it be firm, and on centerline, in the 1st 1/3 of the runway than any attempt to make it smooth. A few hundred feet per minute won't hurt the airplane. 7-800 (normal sink rate) feet per minute won't be good for it, but better firm than a bounce from flaring too much, or a bounce from pounding it on.

You'll want the spoilers armed. They should deploy (on Boeing) with the application of reverse, BUT the reverse interlocks aren't easy, and you can't get a feel for them in the air (locked out). So, spoiler deployment will go a long way toward keeping it in the runway, not bouncing, not careening in a crosswind. Kill the lift immediately. That's important.

If it's got auto brakes, they're your friend. Set "3". Or select "medium" on an Airbus. You want that thing slowing down quickly. They start braking wth spoiler deployment.

You really have to watch the approach speed. If you're too fast for your weight and flap configuration, it'll bounce on landing. Too slow, it'll be a [censored] to fly (back side of the L/D curve). Figuring out the reference speed for your gross weight in that airplane from the FMC is where you'll need help.

Visual approach is hard. You'll be between 125 and 165 knots in most airliners. The nose will be raised compared with light airplanes, and you'll be flying twice as fast, with twice the sink rate.

Ideally, you would tune up the ILS, and then couple the AP to the GS/LOC but that's a complex FMC discussion, too. With some training, I could get you to do that, and then set the airplane up for auto land, which requires all sorts of steps in the proper order, but will set the airplane down on an ILS runway...

 

[fdcg27]

I'm quite sure that I could fly any jet in cruise and maybe do a takeoff in some.
A landing would be a different matter.
Bringing a fast moving object at a pretty high rate of descent to a fairly well defined spot and then arresting that descent with a flare at just the right moment would be beyond my abilities.
Finding the right frequency, declaring an emergency and finding the runway wouldn't be that hard.
Figuring out the descent to the runway threshold would be the hard part and an enthusiastic amateur pilot would probably not be able to execute a successful go-around.
Throw a little weather into the mix and things would get even worse.
If both of the pilots flying any airliner succumbed to something, then the passengers had better hope that there's a deadheading or commuting ATP sitting in the back with them.
Even a CRJ FO would have a clue and could likely bring things to a successful conclusion.

 

[FowVay]

It's like walking in cake

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
It's like walking in cake

I still miss that kind of flying...wonder why the LSO talk-down? Usually, day, case 1 recovery is done with no radio comms...and the ball keeps you on glideslope...

 

[maximus]

Contrary to popular belief, even the most automated birds require a lot of input from the operator and the operator must have an intimate understanding of all the lateral and vertical modes and how and when to engage them. This is why the commercial guy in 737 couldn't be of much help. He didn’t understand the automation at all. He would have been better off in a DC-3.

 

[Mr Nice]

Zero possibility of non pilot landing a Boeing or an Airbus without a ball of fire and destruction....

 

[fdcg27]

I'll go you one better.
There's probably zero chance of any pilot without jet experience landing one of these in anything more than a controlled crash.
Anyone with any understanding of what a commercial pilot certificate means will understand that a ticket that can be earned in a piston Cessna has little relevance to the operation of a very fast moving and much less forgiving jet transport.

 

[zuluplus30]

We have plenty of pilots and at least a dozen CFIs here at our enroute center who can and have talked people down flying light GA singles and twins. Some were successful. Others weren't . On the flip side, even those of us with multi-engine ratings and minimal turbine time wouldn't be able to reliably help an incapacitated flight crew of an airliner or bizjet. The complexity of anything that requires a type rating is far outside ATC's realm of expertise and would almost certainly end poorly.

 

[quint]

I'll throw in my $0.02....

I'm lucky in that, right after I obtained my airframe and powerplant license, I signed on with a major airline and a few months after I started and was given the opportunity to a few minutes seat time in this airline's 767 simulator. The real pilots who were scheduled to use it were on their way back from lunch, so we had to hurry before they got back.

The extent of my real life flight experience was a few hours of (instructed) flight time in various 172's, and one hour hot dogging in a T34. Throw in about 30 years of flying radio control, as if that matters. Having my A&P and being around the jets on a daily basis, I knew my way around a 767 cockpit, meaning I knew where everything was, and what it did. Doesnt make me a pilot by any means, but bravado took over and I was determined to bring this plane down like a boss. I've seen Airport '75 ten times, and all the others at least twice, so I know what I'm doing. If George Kennedy can get a 707 out of a ditch, and Ted Striker can land the space shuttle, certainly I can land a 767.

Uh, no.

After a short briefing about what was where and getting myself situated, I hopped in the kings throne, got comfortable, and the simulation was started. My instructor set me up a few miles out, on approach to the airport we worked at. I had flown in and out of this airport in real life a few times so I knew what the view looked like, and the screens in front of me were pretty impressive with realistic detail. Buildings, cars moving on the highway nearby, streetlights, etc were all there exactly where they were in real life. Anyway, with very little instruction, I proceeded to line up with the runway, keep the nose up, adjust this, tweak that...feeling good about myself, this wasnt that difficult. For a short time.

Then.....all Hades broke loose. I heard a whisper and a few giggles from behind me, then in an instant every alarm and light went off, the glass cockpit lit up like a Christmas tree, and I watched the horizon in my display start moving in nightmarish ways a 767 isnt supposed to do. My instructor had programmed in a #2 engine fire at about a mile or two out, and yelled out "#2 is on fire, better deal with it". In the span of about 15 seconds, I started yawing way off the runway centerline, I was having a serious time trying to keep the wings level while tending to the fire and loss of thrust, dealing with yaw since I was losing #2, jockeying the throttles while messing with the flaps while eyeballing the sink rate, all the alarms and lights and the fire demanding attention... it went on for what seemed like an eternity, but was really a fraction of minute. About five seconds after I put the gear down while praying I could save face and get this beast on the ground in one piece, I banked severely and, according to the simulator and the instructor, I had dragged the right wing, broke the #2 engine off, then crashed severely. Complete loss of life, aircraft, and a few acres of the cornfield I "landed" in. I think I obliterated the first couple hundred feet of the runway too, they are going to have to hit Home Depot for a few bags of concrete to fix that sucker.

Ego = destroyed. Three snot nosed mechanics behind me laughing hysterically. And one less 767 in the world, courtesy of me. Oh well. That was three of the scariest minutes of my three minute life as a commercial pilot.

What happened after that made it all worse. Two other guys in the tour I was taking were given a couple minutes each, and both proceeded to bring it down and succesfully land. Not perfect, a little rough but completely acceptable with no damage to plane or ego. Both of them had their private license and each flew a few hours every month flying 172's, Tomahawks, or whatever out of the local strip. Watching them bring down a 767 just on what they knew from flying the little single engine planes was pretty impressive, and the instructor let them know it. I, on the other hand, went through the rest of the day getting random pats on the back from various people in the hangar thanking me "for killing everyone". I loudly and quite profanely made note that I was the only of the three of us who was given an engine fire, but that made no difference.

So what I learned is, taking an average airplane mechanic who did very well on his exams and knows his way around a cockpit, has taken off and landed a small single a few times, and throwing him in the pilots seat and asking him to land a heavy commercial twin with an engine on fire gets you seriously dead in a big hurry. If the guy is a real pilot, even just flying rinky dink singles out of the local airport, you have a fighting chance, if a multi-million dollar 767 simulator is at all realistic. I had just watched two guys with nothing more than their private licenses and a couple hundred hours each do it. Yes, it was just a simulator, but I'm presuming a modern day simulator used at a major airline is pretty realistic.

I was at a party recently and while we were all discussing our upcoming trip, a couple of people said "If the pilots die, Chris can land the plane for us!" and I proceeded to let them know, no, being an airplane mechanic doesnt mean I can fly a commercial jet, and I would not land the plane with any expectation of survival, but yes I would try, but expect to die. One of the guys there, who probably drinks too much, was adamant that he knew enough about planes to bring one down no problem. I proceeded to inform him of the dream world he lived in, but he wouldnt hear it, I just let him talk. For some people its just better to let them live in their dream world than to explain reality.

When I fly, I want my pilots not dead, competent, experienced, happy, over age 40 and very well paid. In that order.

 

[KD0AXS]

This "passenger" was able to land an A320 simulator with instruction from an A320 pilot. However, they do point out that there's no way she would have been able to successfully land the aircraft in a real world situation.