Flying the Boeing 757-200

[y_p_w]

The first flight of the 757 was 42 years ago in 1982, so the design took place a few years before that. Absolutely state of the art when it came out and still a very capable cockpit, but not modern. The cost of retrofitting an existing older cockpit with new avionics and controls is prohibitively expensive, because of the recertification of the airplane and aircrews.

It’s been done.





I guess some even go further.

Large Display System

When you equip your aircraft with the most efficient Large Format Display System retrofit for current 757s and 767s, bigger displays are just the beginning.

www.collinsaerospace.com

 

[wwillson]

It’s been done.

Yes, it sure has. UPS retrofitted their 757 & 767s with new larger glass in the cockpit and even re-engined their 727s. A former acquaintance of mine flew the 727 for UPS, tons of time (15k hours) on the old engines and a few thousand hours on the new engines. He moved to the 757-767 and flew those for a few years until he retired.

 

[y_p_w]

Yes, it sure has. UPS retrofitted their 757 & 767s with new larger glass in the cockpit and even re-engined their 727s. A former acquaintance of mine flew the 727 for UPS, tons of time (15k hours) on the old engines and a few thousand hours on the new engines. He moved to the 757-767 and flew those for a few years until he retired.

The certification work has already been done by Boeing and Collins Aerospace though. I saw one of the claims was that it saved weight that can result in lower fuel costs over the remaining life of the aircraft. Still, some of these claims seem to be about replacing older CRT-based glass cockpits with flat screens.

 

[SEMI_287]

That's awesome Wayne! I got to fly Delta MD-88 sims on a "Delta Day", that I paid for.." back in my DCA days. Always wanted to fly the 757, that was my goal. Should have stayed with US Airways instead of Southwest. The 57 is a great jet, always try to jumpseat them if I can.

 

[dumkid]

So what happens if you crash in the simulator? Do you get a big game over message?

 

[wwillson]

So what happens if you crash in the simulator? Do you get a big game over message?

We didn't crash, so I don't know. @Astro14 or @Just a civilian pilot will know, as they have spent decades flying SIMs.

 

[Astro14]

We didn't crash, so I don't know. @Astro14 or @Just a civilian pilot will know, as they have spent decades flying SIMs.

It depends on the simulator in question, but, in general, the simulator freezes. That is, the motion stops, the instruments stop moving, and the visual stops moving. Usually, there is a "crash" or alarm sound, sometimes, there is a blinking red light in the visual display.

We do try to avoid crashing, however.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

We didn't crash, so I don't know. @Astro14 or @Just a civilian pilot will know, as they have spent decades flying SIMs.

Not sure what happens except you fail lol.

Only time I have been in the sim and it was going to crash ( check pilot stopped it ) was when the CP thought the A320 could fly with no hydraulics and I said it can’t, it will crash ( he thought you could use rudder, trim, and power to control it ).

He turned off all 3 hydraulics to experiment and it was impossible to even move the side stick. The sim started to slowly lose control and we would have crashed had it not been stopped.

 

[Astro14]

Not sure what happens except you fail lol.

Only time I have been in the sim and it was going to crash ( check pilot stopped it ) was when the CP thought the A320 could fly with no hydraulics and I said it can’t, it will crash ( he thought you could use rudder, trim, and power to control it ).

He turned off all 3 hydraulics to experiment and it was impossible to even move the side stick. The sim started to slowly lose control and we would have crashed had it not been stopped.

I'm not going to say how I know what will happen when a sim crashes, but I do know that the actual cross wind limit on a 747-400 for landing, is about 80 knots, not the 40 that is demonstrated.

Also, if you approach the San Mateo bridge at 50 feet, and 350 knots, coming up the bay on a heading of 280 towards SFO, you can pull into a 2.5G loop, then, at the top of the loop while inverted and facing back east, drop the gear, and select flaps 5, and then while pulling out of the loop, ease the G, with idle power, and get to flaps 30 before landing on SFO 28R.

Wayne and I didn't try that, but I have done it... Just as I've done a single engine landing (three engines out) in the 747-400, at CAT II minimums, with a 25 knot crosswind. It won't maintain altitude on one engine with any drag, so you have to manage the drag rather precisely, particularly during a CAT II approach with a crosswind.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I'm not going to say how I know what will happen when a sim crashes, but I do know that the actual cross wind limit on a 747-400 for landing, is about 80 knots, not the 40 that is demonstrated.

Also, if you approach the San Mateo bridge at 50 feet, and 350 knots, coming up the bay on a heading of 280 towards SFO, you can pull into a 2.5G loop, then, at the top of the loop while inverted and facing back east, drop the gear, and select flaps 5, and then while pulling out of the loop, ease the G, with idle power, and get to flaps 30 before landing on SFO 28R.

Wayne and I didn't try that, but I have done it... Just as I've done a single engine landing (three engines out) in the 747-400, at CAT II minimums, with a 25 knot crosswind. It won't maintain altitude on one engine with any drag, so you have to manage the drag rather precisely, particularly during a CAT II approach with a crosswind.

That’s quite the visual approach into SFO. Maverick would be envious

Max recommended cross wind limit is 38 knots on the Airbus. I have never asked for higher crosswinds to experiment ( only in the sim ) but I will next time ( not inverted ).

I like trying stuff out in the sim that we never be to see when there is time left over at the end of the session.

 

[Astro14]

That’s quite the visual approach into SFO. Maverick would be envious

Max recommended cross wind limit is 38 knots on the Airbus. I have never asked for higher crosswinds to experiment ( only in the sim ) but I will next time ( not inverted ).

I like trying stuff out in the sim that we never be to see when there is time left over at the end of the session.

I always offer that when I am teaching/evaluating. I used to play around with that when I was flying the simulator on personal time. We can book time for training, particularly landing currency, for instructors only. Time is tight on our simulators these days as our training loads are high, but many years ago, I booked time every month just to fly for my own proficiency. I would come in late in the evening, on a day off and fly.

When exceeding the design parameters of the airplane, you are assuming that the simulator aerodynamic model is correctly extrapolated into that part of the flight regime - and that extrapolation may not be accurate. Still, I think there is value in an experienced pilot trying something that explores the limits of the airplane that they fly. It sharpens your scan, and your feel, for that airplane.

Another example: the two engine go around on the 747-400. With two engines failed on the same side, the airplane can be flown to a good landing, but the flight manual prohibits a go around once the landing gear is extended. Some discussion with the Boeing engineers on the reason for that - and they stated that since it couldn’t be done on the -100 or -200, they never tested it.

So, we played around with it a bit. Being very careful to recognize that the maneuver was still prohibited, so we weren’t teaching it, we were simply exploring the flight envelope.

If you went to full thrust on the remaining two engines, you could level off, but it took a bit of raised wing into the operating engines to control direction, there simply wasn’t enough rudder to manage the yaw. A touch of “raise the dead” from the light piston twin playbook managed the yaw enough to maintain directional control. You could level off, pull up the gear, then get flaps to 5 and it would climb out (at normal landing weight).

Again - prohibited in the flight manual. But trying it out gives you some familiarity with the extremes of the operating envelope, helps you understand your airplane better.

 

[john_pifer]

I always offer that when I am teaching/evaluating. I used to play around with that when I was flying the simulator on personal time. We can book time for training, particularly landing currency, for instructors only. Time is tight on our simulators these days as our training loads are high, but many years ago, I booked time every month just to fly for my own proficiency. I would come in late in the evening, on a day off and fly.

When exceeding the design parameters of the airplane, you are assuming that the simulator aerodynamic model is correctly extrapolated into that part of the flight regime - and that extrapolation may not be accurate. Still, I think there is value in an experienced pilot trying something that explores the limits of the airplane that they fly. It sharpens your scan, and your feel, for that airplane.

Another example: the two engine go around on the 747-400. With two engines failed on the same side, the airplane can be flown to a good landing, but the flight manual prohibits a go around once the landing gear is extended. Some discussion with the Boeing engineers on the reason for that - and they stated that since it couldn’t be done on the -100 or -200, they never tested it.

So, we played around with it a bit. Being very careful to recognize that the maneuver was still prohibited, so we weren’t teaching it, we were simply exploring the flight envelope.

If you went to full thrust on the remaining two engines, you could level off, but it took a bit of raised wing into the operating engines to control direction, there simply wasn’t enough rudder to manage the yaw. A touch of “raise the dead” from the light piston twin playbook managed the yaw enough to maintain directional control. You could level off, pull up the gear, then get flaps to 5 and it would climb out (at normal landing weight).

Again - prohibited in the flight manual. But trying it out gives you some familiarity with the extremes of the operating envelope, helps you understand your airplane better.

This is awesome!

I recognize that you do this to sharpen proficiency, but I also love that you don’t neglect fun during training and teaching!