What if both pilots become incapacitated?
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We use these aircraft accidents for human factors training at my job. The Greek carrier was caused by the fuselage outflow valve not being set to 'auto' after an overnight maintenance check. The fuselage never pressurized and therefore the oxygen content inside the cabin was not enough to support life. When the O2 generators ran out of air (about 12 mins) everyone went to sleep and didn't wake up. The pilots have a separate O2 system but apparently never donned the masks.
As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.
As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Here’s my airplane. See the radio management panel?
I’ll wait...
Sorry, BITOG turned it 90 degrees, but I'm not certain that makes any difference...
121.9 MHz on the active com. That ATIS thing is cool.
I have no illusion I could fly it, though, well, other than to the crash site.
Here’s my airplane. See the radio management panel?
I’ll wait...
Sorry, BITOG turned it 90 degrees, but I'm not certain that makes any difference...
121.9 MHz on the active com. That ATIS thing is cool.
I have no illusion I could fly it, though, well, other than to the crash site.
No worries, I read ten years ago, about landing planes (Jumbo jets) on auto pilot from tower. Technology is decades old. Who really knows?
Respectfully,
Pajero!
Respectfully,
Pajero!
If you were already a private or commercial pilot, and you spent a couple of hours in the simulator with me, we could get you to the point of being able to operate the radios and basic auto flight management. You would have a fighting chance.
The MS flight simulator idea isn’t a bad one...that program is good.
We often get the same meals, it’s rare that anyone gets sick from the chow. It’s not happened to me in 20 years...now, the food on the layover, well, that’s happened, and recently!
The MS flight simulator idea isn’t a bad one...that program is good.
We often get the same meals, it’s rare that anyone gets sick from the chow. It’s not happened to me in 20 years...now, the food on the layover, well, that’s happened, and recently!
looks like the radios are either side of the green crt in the center.
i would make contact on 121.5 and await instructions.
if i know things like stall speed,speed at approach,ect i should have a reasonable chance of a successful "controlled crash".
you might not easily reuse the plane but at this point the primary goal is for everyone aboard to walk away.
having experience with models and having taken off and landed light planes by myself with an instructor next to me gives me a better chance than most.
i would make contact on 121.5 and await instructions.
if i know things like stall speed,speed at approach,ect i should have a reasonable chance of a successful "controlled crash".
you might not easily reuse the plane but at this point the primary goal is for everyone aboard to walk away.
having experience with models and having taken off and landed light planes by myself with an instructor next to me gives me a better chance than most.
Dealing with in-flight emergencies like both engines on a jet flaming out, that would challenge even an experienced on type pilot. I'm not sure that plane crash could have been 100% avoidable even with the crew in full control.
"Commercial License" could mean he was qualified to fly a 11-passenger (including pilot) single propeller engined aircraft (here, it's under/at 12 passengers, if under, no co-pilot required). That isn't any indication he had the requirements to fly a modern fly-by-wire commercial sized multi-engined jet passenger plane (or cargo, for that matter).
Agreed, though, that unless you had flight experience as pilot-in-command on a commercial-level multiengine jet airplane ... even a newer "corporate jet" class ... you're as good as done. There will be no crash-free landing.
There is an "art" to crash-landing an airplane. Do it right and you have a chance of walking away, do it wrong and there will be no chance. I don't know if it is, but it should be required practice in the simulator.
"Commercial License" could mean he was qualified to fly a 11-passenger (including pilot) single propeller engined aircraft (here, it's under/at 12 passengers, if under, no co-pilot required). That isn't any indication he had the requirements to fly a modern fly-by-wire commercial sized multi-engined jet passenger plane (or cargo, for that matter).
Agreed, though, that unless you had flight experience as pilot-in-command on a commercial-level multiengine jet airplane ... even a newer "corporate jet" class ... you're as good as done. There will be no crash-free landing.
There is an "art" to crash-landing an airplane. Do it right and you have a chance of walking away, do it wrong and there will be no chance. I don't know if it is, but it should be required practice in the simulator.
Being a pilot has to rate as one of the most stressful jobs period.
No envy here, just props and respect to Astro 14.
I'm constantly in awe of the reliability of the airplane, and safety record.
No envy here, just props and respect to Astro 14.
I'm constantly in awe of the reliability of the airplane, and safety record.
My gosh! Didn’t any of you watch “Airport -1975” ?
Looks like flight 11 (911) would have gone done anyway even if they had regained control from the terrorist.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
They'll con the civilian into a waterlanding crash away from ground population.
Lacking that, maybe a good place for the plane to take a Sidewinder or a healthy dose of Vulcan rounds.
They'll con the civilian into a water
Lacking that, maybe a good place for the plane to take a Sidewinder or a healthy dose of Vulcan rounds.
Originally Posted By: FowVay
We use these aircraft accidents for human factors training at my job. The Greek carrier was caused by the fuselage outflow valve not being set to 'auto' after an overnight maintenance check. The fuselage never pressurized and therefore the oxygen content inside the cabin was not enough to support life. When the O2 generators ran out of air (about 12 mins) everyone went to sleep and didn't wake up. The pilots have a separate O2 system but apparently never donned the masks.
As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.
That's just despicable. 1 moron forgets a valve, and 112 people die?
Never ceases to amaze me how arbitrary flight can be.
Im assuming something went wrong with the oxygen deploy that almost nobody managed to get oxygen before passing out?
We use these aircraft accidents for human factors training at my job. The Greek carrier was caused by the fuselage outflow valve not being set to 'auto' after an overnight maintenance check. The fuselage never pressurized and therefore the oxygen content inside the cabin was not enough to support life. When the O2 generators ran out of air (about 12 mins) everyone went to sleep and didn't wake up. The pilots have a separate O2 system but apparently never donned the masks.
As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.
That's just despicable. 1 moron forgets a valve, and 112 people die?
Never ceases to amaze me how arbitrary flight can be.
Im assuming something went wrong with the oxygen deploy that almost nobody managed to get oxygen before passing out?
Originally Posted By: Pajero
No worries, I read ten years ago, about landing planes (Jumbo jets) on auto pilot from tower. Technology is decades old. Who really knows?
Respectfully,
Pajero!
The control system feedback time between the tower and the plane makes minor adjustment on the plane almost impossible. You will overshoot and undershoot, shaking all over the place, and certainly crash.
A plane designed with this in mind like a drone might be ok, but a commercial jet with dual pilots in mind, probably not.
No worries, I read ten years ago, about landing planes (Jumbo jets) on auto pilot from tower. Technology is decades old. Who really knows?
Respectfully,
Pajero!
The control system feedback time between the tower and the plane makes minor adjustment on the plane almost impossible. You will overshoot and undershoot, shaking all over the place, and certainly crash.
A plane designed with this in mind like a drone might be ok, but a commercial jet with dual pilots in mind, probably not.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
but almost as soon as he entered the cockpit, the left engine flamed out due to fuel exhaustion...., the right engine also flamed out,
If only he'd been an hour sooner! A plane is just a glider without fuel. He was in a REALLY LOUSY situation!!
Very true. This flight attendant, with oxygen (as long as it lasted), could fly the plane using basic stick & rudder skills like any pilot knows. Then look for a road to land the thing on. And of course his fuel ran out, so never had the chance to just fly the plane down. He could have passed out before (costing precious time) and/or he passed out at some point while he was finally in the cockpit.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
but almost as soon as he entered the cockpit, the left engine flamed out due to fuel exhaustion...., the right engine also flamed out,
If only he'd been an hour sooner! A plane is just a glider without fuel. He was in a REALLY LOUSY situation!!
Very true. This flight attendant, with oxygen (as long as it lasted), could fly the plane using basic stick & rudder skills like any pilot knows. Then look for a road to land the thing on. And of course his fuel ran out, so never had the chance to just fly the plane down. He could have passed out before (costing precious time) and/or he passed out at some point while he was finally in the cockpit.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: FowVay
We use these aircraft accidents for human factors training at my job. The Greek carrier was caused by the fuselage outflow valve not being set to 'auto' after an overnight maintenance check. The fuselage never pressurized and therefore the oxygen content inside the cabin was not enough to support life. When the O2 generators ran out of air (about 12 mins) everyone went to sleep and didn't wake up. The pilots have a separate O2 system but apparently never donned the masks.
As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.
That's just despicable. 1 moron forgets a valve, and 112 people die?
Never ceases to amaze me how arbitrary flight can be.
Im assuming something went wrong with the oxygen deploy that almost nobody managed to get oxygen before passing out?
Yep. One valve...left open by maintenance...and then a misidentification of the warning, followed by some issues with a language barrier between the crew, since they were from different countries and couldn't effectively communicate about the systems issue when the pressurization failed.
The masks deployed in the back. So, the passengers had oxygen.
Our masks in the cockpit are different, you reach down to grab it and put it on. It's used in flight for several reasons, and they don't just drop like the passenger masks.
But, this crew should be something to consider every time some new discount airline promises that they are using "fully trained and qualified crew", as they operate from a different country, with leases in a second country, and crew sourced from a third country to get around labor laws. This Helios crew was contracted out, outsourced, and did not operate effectively, despite thousands of flight hours.
One switch position.
That's all it takes.
Oh, and did you notice this data point? The Flight Attendant called "Mayday" five times on the radio...but because it was tuned to the air traffic control sector hundreds of miles behind them, ATC never heard the call...
Originally Posted By: FowVay
We use these aircraft accidents for human factors training at my job. The Greek carrier was caused by the fuselage outflow valve not being set to 'auto' after an overnight maintenance check. The fuselage never pressurized and therefore the oxygen content inside the cabin was not enough to support life. When the O2 generators ran out of air (about 12 mins) everyone went to sleep and didn't wake up. The pilots have a separate O2 system but apparently never donned the masks.
As for whether a complete stranger to a commercial airliner cockpit could just walk in, sit down, put on a headset and start flying - NO. Possibly for a small general aviation craft but near zero likelihood in a commercial jet.
That's just despicable. 1 moron forgets a valve, and 112 people die?
Never ceases to amaze me how arbitrary flight can be.
Im assuming something went wrong with the oxygen deploy that almost nobody managed to get oxygen before passing out?
Yep. One valve...left open by maintenance...and then a misidentification of the warning, followed by some issues with a language barrier between the crew, since they were from different countries and couldn't effectively communicate about the systems issue when the pressurization failed.
The masks deployed in the back. So, the passengers had oxygen.
Our masks in the cockpit are different, you reach down to grab it and put it on. It's used in flight for several reasons, and they don't just drop like the passenger masks.
But, this crew should be something to consider every time some new discount airline promises that they are using "fully trained and qualified crew", as they operate from a different country, with leases in a second country, and crew sourced from a third country to get around labor laws. This Helios crew was contracted out, outsourced, and did not operate effectively, despite thousands of flight hours.
One switch position.
That's all it takes.
Oh, and did you notice this data point? The Flight Attendant called "Mayday" five times on the radio...but because it was tuned to the air traffic control sector hundreds of miles behind them, ATC never heard the call...
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Very true. This flight attendant, with oxygen (as long as it lasted), could fly the plane using basic stick & rudder skills like any pilot knows. Then look for a road to land the thing on. And of course his fuel ran out, so never had the chance to just fly the plane down. He could have passed out before (costing precious time) and/or he passed out at some point while he was finally in the cockpit.
Yeah - you really think you can land a 737 on a road?
Sure...
That will just take the death toll up from "everybody on board" to "everybody on board PLUS every person in every car/truck/bus on that road for a couple miles".
In the meantime, the FA was up in the cockpit for several minutes and COULD NOT FIGURE OUT how to descend the airplane or leave the holding pattern.
That's an important point: with a commercial license, but no heavy jet experience, he couldn't apply his stick and rudder skills...and sat there helplessly as the airplane ran out of fuel.
Very true. This flight attendant, with oxygen (as long as it lasted), could fly the plane using basic stick & rudder skills like any pilot knows. Then look for a road to land the thing on. And of course his fuel ran out, so never had the chance to just fly the plane down. He could have passed out before (costing precious time) and/or he passed out at some point while he was finally in the cockpit.
Yeah - you really think you can land a 737 on a road?
Sure...
That will just take the death toll up from "everybody on board" to "everybody on board PLUS every person in every car/truck/bus on that road for a couple miles".
In the meantime, the FA was up in the cockpit for several minutes and COULD NOT FIGURE OUT how to descend the airplane or leave the holding pattern.
That's an important point: with a commercial license, but no heavy jet experience, he couldn't apply his stick and rudder skills...and sat there helplessly as the airplane ran out of fuel.
Look for the passenger wearing the Nomex flight suit to pilot...
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Yeah - you really think you can land a 737 on a road? Sure...That will just take the death toll up from "everybody on board" to "everybody on board PLUS every person in every car/truck/bus on that road for a couple miles".In the meantime, the FA was up in the cockpit for several minutes and COULD NOT FIGURE OUT how to descend the airplane or leave the holding pattern. That's an important point: with a commercial license, but no heavy jet experience, he couldn't apply his stick and rudder skills...and sat there helplessly as the airplane ran out of fuel.
A 737 has a yoke and rudder pedals. They are very simple to turn and descend. They fly just like a smaller airplane. For a pilot of smaller commercial planes, maneuvering would be a piece of cake in a 737. Nothing special about the roll rate or pitch rate commands in a 737.
Yeah - you really think you can land a 737 on a road? Sure...That will just take the death toll up from "everybody on board" to "everybody on board PLUS every person in every car/truck/bus on that road for a couple miles".In the meantime, the FA was up in the cockpit for several minutes and COULD NOT FIGURE OUT how to descend the airplane or leave the holding pattern. That's an important point: with a commercial license, but no heavy jet experience, he couldn't apply his stick and rudder skills...and sat there helplessly as the airplane ran out of fuel.
A 737 has a yoke and rudder pedals. They are very simple to turn and descend. They fly just like a smaller airplane. For a pilot of smaller commercial planes, maneuvering would be a piece of cake in a 737. Nothing special about the roll rate or pitch rate commands in a 737.
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