VW/Audi oil spec question - does 504 replace 502?

[OldBaldy]

I need to do some more reading. I thought that as long as TBN is greater than 1 there is sufficient additive left in the oil to help counter the TAN growth, and that TAN should be limited to 3-4. Your oil is right at this limit.

But if TBN needs to remain at least at the TAN level, then I understand your concern.

Blackstone always says the TBN must be >1, which is where my confusion comes from.

What makes it more confusing is that your wear metals don't (yet) indicate a problem, so perhaps the TBN really simply needs to be > 1 after all?

 

[Audi Junkie]

I finally found the Rotella T5 10w-30 pds.

The only useful info is TBN of 10, 1.0% sulphated ash and it is Euro E9 E7. I was hoping to get additive percents, but imo this is an interesting oil.
http://www-static.shell.com/static/can-en/downloads/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/1-56.pdf

Just throwing out some ideas. I see E6 is what you're looking for.

 

[m37charlie]

Knowing that it is E9/E7, phosphorus is undoubtedly in the range 1000-1200ppm, and sulfur is closer to 4000ppm than 3000ppm. The E6 oils are much closer to the C3 oils, main difference the E6 oils have ash = 1.0% whereas C3 is 0.8%.
Delvac 1 LE is rated E6 but also E4 and recently also E7.

Charlie

 

[gdawga4]

AJ, just bought a few jugs of T5. Going to be changing out the TDT in a few hundred miles and begin my two OCIs of T5 @ 5k each and sample the 2nd one.

 

[Audi Junkie]

That's awesome. I'm interested in your subjective impressions about how it runs too. I actually ran some 10w-30 Rotella in my V6 2.8s a long time ago. I had to go to a Shell distributor for it and it wasn't labeled semi synth. Everyone was calling it a "sleeper" oil then, an old SL spec formula.

btw- I finally found the spec sheet for T5 inc the +40c visc, it's exactly the same as the Mobil 1 10w-30 HM we discussed.
So, it's thinner than 5w-40 above freezing and just slightly thicker down to the teens. The spec sheet says 6000cSt at -25c (-13f), which seems fine for winter. I prefer 5000cSt as the floor for cold starting, but...

http://www-static.shell.com/static/can-en/downloads/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/1-56.pdf

I know you'll see single digits in winter, so you can keep looking till then. Mobil 1 has another Hi-Miles oil, the 5w-30 HM which is a stout SL spec, but not a thick 30 at operating temp, just 10cSt like normal USA 30 weight. Still an ACEA A5 spec and much thinner than 5w-40 in cold. About 1/2 as thick as 5w-40 last time I crunched the numbers just above -0f.

btw- I'm on to running SynPower VR-1 Racing Synthetic in my 2.0T just to be as much of a crazy oddball as I can. I will finally be doing my own UOAs though. Thanks for your Edge UOA again, I'll be using that too w/UOA.

 

[JHZR2]

The only thing I will add is look at TBN retention of the 504/507 oils in recent VW applications (like our 08 rabbit). TBN
I'd be wary at this point of running a 504 oil in an app that requires 502 without watching UOAs closely for at least a few intervals.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
VW/Audi does NOT specify the use of the 504.00 in the USA for a reason. The 504.00 norm is a low-SAPS specification which isn't optimum for the fuels in our country.

So, Audi specifies for use in the USA their former 502.00 norm which is formulated with much higher SAPS to deal with our 'less than perfect' fuels.

Note that BMW has also taken this stance with their LL-04 norm. They recommend it in some countries but not in the USA. Again, LL-04 is a low-SAPS product that isn't optimum for dealing with our fuel.

Personally, I would only use the 504/507 product in vehicles that specify it. The only exception would be the diesel engines where I personally feel it safe to interchange the 505.01 with the 507.00 and vice versa. If in doubt it may be best to simply follow the manufacturers recommendations.

Which leads me back to the highly additized oils.

SynPower 5w-40 is 1000 P, Mg and Z, for the record. Always seems to work ok, I'm not using it though.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Ok, I ran another UOA on the Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 oil at 5283 miles. The latest UOA (at 5283 miles) looks quite good.

There is much debate about the suitability of this (low SAPS) spec oil in the USA with our Ethanol fuels.


Is there a specific brand/grade of fuel you used during this interval? Terry Dyson had some good comments and was doing further research on v-Power's influence on UOAs.

I'm lucky to have Top-Tier fuel priced great, locally and right at the end of the street. It's the fuel VW/Audi specifies.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Just for the sake of thoroughness, the wear rates in Blackstone's universal averages are pretty low anyway, it's not a runaway wear situation by a longshot, like the FSI motors...

Also, the add pack in that universal average has nominal Mo and B, which is missing from the SLX OE, more of a Mobil 1 0w-40 add pack. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Ok, I ran another UOA on the Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 oil at 5283 miles. The latest UOA (at 5283 miles) looks quite good.

There is much debate about the suitability of this (low SAPS) spec oil in the USA with our Ethanol fuels.


Is there a specific brand/grade of fuel you used during this interval? Terry Dyson had some good comments and was doing further research on v-Power's influence on UOAs.

I'm lucky to have Top-Tier fuel priced great, locally and right at the end of the street. It's the fuel VW/Audi specifies.


Yes, I used a non top-tier (Sunoco) fuel of 91 octane (10% ethanol) almost exclusively. I recently changed to Mobil (top tier) 93 octane, after finding that the 91 octane was causing significant spark retard of 8-10 degrees, presumably due to knock detection. I had thought Sunoco was top-tier but only Sunoco Canada is listed, IIRC....so I switched to Mobil and bumped the octane up a leevl (but this was all AFTER the above oil usage period and UOA.

All the fuel around here has 10% Ethanol.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
I need to do some more reading. I thought that as long as TBN is greater than 1 there is sufficient additive left in the oil to help counter the TAN growth, and that TAN should be limited to 3-4. Your oil is right at this limit.

But if TBN needs to remain at least at the TAN level, then I understand your concern.

Blackstone always says the TBN must be >1, which is where my confusion comes from.

What makes it more confusing is that your wear metals don't (yet) indicate a problem, so perhaps the TBN really simply needs to be > 1 after all?


The Detroit Diesel lab said TAN = 4.83 was a problem.
Actually, as far as metals, my Fe was ~8ppm/1000miles, mean age of car 15K mi during OCI, which is high according to Audijunkie's graph. Cu was 20 total, also kind of high.
So I'm going to go short on this OCI (7-8K) and then try the D1 LE for at least 12K miles.

Charlie

 

[gdawga4]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
That's awesome. I'm interested in your subjective impressions about how it runs too. I actually ran some 10w-30 Rotella in my V6 2.8s a long time ago. I had to go to a Shell distributor for it and it wasn't labeled semi synth. Everyone was calling it a "sleeper" oil then, an old SL spec formula.

btw- I finally found the spec sheet for T5 inc the +40c visc, it's exactly the same as the Mobil 1 10w-30 HM we discussed.
So, it's thinner than 5w-40 above freezing and just slightly thicker down to the teens. The spec sheet says 6000cSt at -25c (-13f), which seems fine for winter. I prefer 5000cSt as the floor for cold starting, but...

http://www-static.shell.com/static/can-en/downloads/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/1-56.pdf

I know you'll see single digits in winter, so you can keep looking till then. Mobil 1 has another Hi-Miles oil, the 5w-30 HM which is a stout SL spec, but not a thick 30 at operating temp, just 10cSt like normal USA 30 weight. Still an ACEA A5 spec and much thinner than 5w-40 in cold. About 1/2 as thick as 5w-40 last time I crunched the numbers just above -0f.

btw- I'm on to running SynPower VR-1 Racing Synthetic in my 2.0T just to be as much of a crazy oddball as I can. I will finally be doing my own UOAs though. Thanks for your Edge UOA again, I'll be using that too w/UOA.


Cool, I will let you know what I think. I should be changing it out on Wed.

Single digits in the winter for sure...below zero, not very often. I don't remember the last time we saw negative temps (at least in the last couple of years).

You've used my Edge UOA quite a few times now...I'm glad you're finding it useful

 

[Audi Junkie]

I have a 15q stash of Edge sitting here. It's some of the newest oil I have, which meant it would likely sit around for a while until I used it. I really didn't think I could get away with it in the new 2.0T, but your UOA indicates otherwise and I will definately try this winter, and that suits me fine in a brand new vehicle.

Edge is definately stronger additives than the SLX Pro OE.

 

[gdawga4]

Nice stash. I have about 10 qts of GC, 5 qts of Edge and 10 qts of T6. I was going to use the T6 in the S4 but I think I'm going to put it in the gf's 2.0T A4 now.

Just changed the oil last night and am now running the T5 10w30. So far so good...she seems to run smoother compared to the TDT (perhaps it is in my head but nonetheless happy). No noises from the engine as I've read some people complain about the chain tensioner (iirc) making noise on start up depending on the oil used.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I noticed the price difference between T5 and T6, $13 vs $16, iirc. I have to say thanks for sticking in there and trying the T5. A lot of guys would flinch and get the synth oil, but in this case, I really think the semi 10w-30 is the best call.

I doubt if you would tap the real service length of T6 anyway, and the lighter visc 10w-30 of T5 is KNOWN and advertized better mpg. I've just been happy with the way 10w-30s have run when I used them, very smooth.

I just grabbed a second case of Valvoline Racing VR1 Synth in 10w-30 to get the $50 rebate. I will UOA from it. In fact, that would actually be a good oil to try for you in 10w-30, dino VR-1, buy one get one free (two 12 pack for dino / two 6 pack for synth). Maybe go for the synth VR-1 10w-30 for winter, I dunno.

My BOSCH guy uses 20w-50 VR-1 dino in his personal cars (like S6) even though he has drums of Syntec 5w-50 at his shop. Worth a shot, for real.

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

Must buy before July 31 for rebate...

http://classic.valvoline.com/qrz591dpoyu/step1.asp?rc=DE64D258D

 

[gdawga4]

No problem AJ. I'm open to trying new oils and if it works well, great! So far no complaints and I put on about 250 miles yesterday. Yesterday was my best tank of gas since owning the S4, 245 mi and filled up 14.5 gal! Not sure if that has to do with the oil but driving style hasn't changed (spirited most of the time and ~80 mph).

I thought I read that T5 was priced at $13/jug but at my local WM, it is $16, same as T6.

 

[OldBaldy]

Ok, as I am still trying to get to the bottom of the question as to whether or not the 504/507 oils can/should be used in pre 2007 gasoline fueled Audi cars calling for the 502 or other spec (such as the API SJ / Acea A2 / Acea A3 requirement as listed in my 2005 Audi S4 owner's manual...it doesn't even MENTION VW 502 or other oil specs!), I eventually called Audi of America and asked them to confirm definitively, whether or not the 504/507 spec oil was NOT suitable for my S4, and whether I should use the 502 spec oils only, or whether the 504/507 spec oils are fully backwards compatible with 502 and thus also recommended/approved by Audi.

After some discussion behind the scenes, the Audi of America representative confirmed that I can use EITHER the 502 oils OR the 504/507 oils on the TSB located at http://microsites.audiusa.com/ngw/09/media/downloads/pdfs/Audi_TechnialServiceBulletin_1997-2010.pdf

I specifically mentioned that there was a lot of discussion on the internet and I was getting different feedback from Audi dealers on this topic...and that some were saying that the 504/507 oils are not compatible with the US fuels, etc. Audi's response to this was that Audi recommends 504/507 oils for USA cars running USA fuels, as indicated in their TSB on approved oils to use in the USA.

With that said, I intend to change my plan and keep my new 5W-40 Pennzoil Ultra oil for the spring time, and use my stash of the lighter, Castrol SLX Professional LL3 5W-30 in the S4 for the Fall and Winter months. I'll continue to do the regular 2500 mile interval UOA for the full 10K miles interval on these oils, to compare against my earlier 502 spec Castrol Professional OE 5W-30 oil that gave me great results.

 

[dparm]

So 504 doesn't replace 502, it's just an alternative or supplement.

Did they indicate if all 504 oils meet the 502 specs?

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: dparm
So 504 doesn't replace 502, it's just an alternative or supplement.

Did they indicate if all 504 oils meet the 502 specs?


No they did not get into that detail, but there is no evidence anywhere and it is illogical to think that VW will promote a later spec with worse characteristics in key performance areas than the earlier 502 spec that was in place in the 2004 timeframe.

The ONLY actual spec comparison I've seen is the one on the Lubrizol site, and that CLEARLY shows the 504 spec as having the same or significantly better key characteristics as the 502 spec, especially in things like anti-wear characteristic and fuel economy, etc.

NOTE that I'm not aware of any US Audis having the long-drain OCI they have in Europe, and I don;t believe Audi of America implies or approves of any long-drain OCI in the USA EVEN WHEN USING 504/507 spec oils....so I believe if there is any truth to the rumour of "incompatible" USA fuels to these oils, it's probably to the effect that Audi recommends these and all other oils be changed on the shorter, fixed, OCI of, in my case, 10K miles.

But this does NOT imply that the 504 oils are or will be worse than any early 502 spec oils, when used with the USA OCI!

 

[Audi Junkie]

According to Lubrizol, 504 (2004) exceeds 502 (2005) and 503.01 (2000).

Notable is that 502 was updated after 504 was introduced.