How about it's value as a combustion chamber cleaner? There's a guy on YouTube that tried a few different products, techron being one of them, and did a before and after using a borescope. It was hardly a scientific approach... I mean he used the same vehicle for each test he did.
Top Tier Gas vs Fuel System Cleaners
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What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
Well sure. However, there's a point where it's counterproductive. Even the most effective detergent fuel isn't going to result in a combustion chamber that looks freshly manufactured. All the photos I see of the results detergents show a light coating of carbon. That should be normal. However, I don't it's normal with a crusty layer of carbon that looks like the time my wife set the microwave for 40 minutes instead of 40 seconds and forgot about it.
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
Well sure. However, there's a point where it's counterproductive. Even the most effective detergent fuel isn't going to result in a combustion chamber that looks freshly manufactured. All the photos I see of the results detergents show a light coating of carbon. That should be normal. However, I don't it's normal with a crusty layer of carbon that looks like the time my wife set the microwave for 40 minutes instead of 40 seconds and forgot about it.
Very few modern engines have any sort of carbon issues in the combustion chambers, the last real bad one i can remember was the N* but hey these companies will keep flogging this garbage as long as someone buys it.
One popular product makes smoke like crazy and people swear its removing carbon, its doing nothing but making useless smoke.
One popular product makes smoke like crazy and people swear its removing carbon, its doing nothing but making useless smoke.
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
I have no gripes with a little bit of carbon
On the bottles of techron they advertise that it cleans the combustion chamber as well, complete with a before and after of a piston that looks like that old frying pan you should probably throw away and a piston that looks like it was pulled from a brand new engine.
Oh and that smokey additive you speak of is snake o... er.. seafoam
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
I have no gripes with a little bit of carbon
On the bottles of techron they advertise that it cleans the combustion chamber as well, complete with a before and after of a piston that looks like that old frying pan you should probably throw away and a piston that looks like it was pulled from a brand new engine.
Oh and that smokey additive you speak of is snake o... er.. seafoam
Never used an engine cleaner, fuel system cleaner, injector cleaner or any similar product. Never had a problem. Money in my pocket.
And I use the cheapest gas I can find.
And I use the cheapest gas I can find.
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I recently saw a new Gumout line/new bottles at AutoZone the other night called EXPERT Gumout. Both in regular Gumout and Regane flavors as Complete or All-in-One cleaners.
For the most part, any PEA containing FSC is a nice once a year or 10k mile additive that certainly won't hurt even on top of running Top Tier fuels/premium year round. The issue isn't necessarily fuel quality as it is your app being prone to troublesome performance for one reason or another(hey, maybe you had an emissions control problem and either ran too rich or lean for a time and this lead to irregular depositing in the combustion chamber or had excessive blow-by or one of those PCV systems that ingest a bit past the valve itself and into your intake/gumming the valves. Maybe a fuel tank added cleaner will help with whatever reaches and accumulates in the combustion chamber. Otherwise, you'd have to do an induction cleaning from the throttle body (unless, yours is equipped with a MAF and you need to bypass it in order to avoid fouling the sensor).
Personally, I have had good results using a product such as Amsoil's Power Foam or the Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner as an intake induced 'foaming' type of product. After using as directed (perhaps allowing a longer soak b4 expelling mind you, 1-2 hour(s) instead of 15 minutes etc
) once I change the oil after that sort of treatment in a neglected vehicle or one new to me I tend to get more deposits out with the oil drain. It's similar to if you run an idle oil flush additive before your oil change (as long as not legitimately sludged you only will be moving some carbon hopefully). The subsequent changes yield less deposits to not of noticeable size. That tells me the combustion chamber cleaners and idle flushes that I've used have worked to 'some' extent on vehicles new to me and perhaps only received modest maintenance routines and therefore a degree of accumulated deposits. This makes me feel better about running longer OCI(s) afterward as I'm giving the oil less work to do if I remove any carbon between changes (as a tune up). From there, I've only used tank additives and high quality fuel after getting the vehicle into a good maintenance pattern. FWIW.
For the most part, any PEA containing FSC is a nice once a year or 10k mile additive that certainly won't hurt even on top of running Top Tier fuels/premium year round. The issue isn't necessarily fuel quality as it is your app being prone to troublesome performance for one reason or another(hey, maybe you had an emissions control problem and either ran too rich or lean for a time and this lead to irregular depositing in the combustion chamber or had excessive blow-by or one of those PCV systems that ingest a bit past the valve itself and into your intake/gumming the valves. Maybe a fuel tank added cleaner will help with whatever reaches and accumulates in the combustion chamber. Otherwise, you'd have to do an induction cleaning from the throttle body (unless, yours is equipped with a MAF and you need to bypass it in order to avoid fouling the sensor).
Personally, I have had good results using a product such as Amsoil's Power Foam or the Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner as an intake induced 'foaming' type of product. After using as directed (perhaps allowing a longer soak b4 expelling mind you, 1-2 hour(s) instead of 15 minutes etc
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All I have used for the last 35 years is the best price E10 I can find. Last couple of years, several tanks of E85, and now primarily E15 since it became readily available at my normal fueling stop. Best value for me on a cost per mile basis. No "top tier" gas, ever. Not that I don't think it is ok, just not going out of my way to get it. Only one station in a town 13 miles from me that has that stuff. I just fuel at high volume convenience store gas pumps. Cannot recall a fuel system related problem since the 70's, and that was a few years before ethanol became a major part of the scene in my area. I have maybe once a year, added something like Techron to the tank as a preventive measure. Not sure it made any difference but I felt better for doing it.
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
I don't know about the "miracle in a bottle" stuff being absolutely necessary, but at the least a detergent level higher than EPA or (California) CARB minimums may be helpful. The Top Tier standard/organization was created by several automakers, and apparently their reason for this was because of all the vehicles being brought in for warranty issues due to residual and/or carbon deposits. They're not doing this to make money from licensing fees.
At the very least, the automakers themselves have sold bottled detergents. ACDelco has several. One bottle shape barely hides who made it for them. It's pretty well known that Chevron Techron Concentrate has been the basis for several fuel treatments sold at dealers. There's also a BMW part number, for which there are several aftermarket fuel treatments marketed as meeting the same requirements.
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
I don't know about the "miracle in a bottle" stuff being absolutely necessary, but at the least a detergent level higher than EPA or (California) CARB minimums may be helpful. The Top Tier standard/organization was created by several automakers, and apparently their reason for this was because of all the vehicles being brought in for warranty issues due to residual and/or carbon deposits. They're not doing this to make money from licensing fees.
At the very least, the automakers themselves have sold bottled detergents. ACDelco has several. One bottle shape barely hides who made it for them. It's pretty well known that Chevron Techron Concentrate has been the basis for several fuel treatments sold at dealers. There's also a BMW part number, for which there are several aftermarket fuel treatments marketed as meeting the same requirements.
Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
Very well said.....
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
Very well said.....
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
I don't know about the "miracle in a bottle" stuff being absolutely necessary, but at the least a detergent level higher than EPA or (California) CARB minimums may be helpful. The Top Tier standard/organization was created by several automakers, and apparently their reason for this was because of all the vehicles being brought in for warranty issues due to residual and/or carbon deposits. They're not doing this to make money from licensing fees.
At the very least, the automakers themselves have sold bottled detergents. ACDelco has several. One bottle shape barely hides who made it for them. It's pretty well known that Chevron Techron Concentrate has been the basis for several fuel treatments sold at dealers. There's also a BMW part number, for which there are several aftermarket fuel treatments marketed as meeting the same requirements.
Yes they do. It's additional revenue. If people are going to buy the miracle in a bottle, why shouldn't they get into the game?
Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Trav
What's wrong with a little carbon? Not talking excess build build up just a little.
I'll take a little carbon build up on the piston tops any day before a shiny new one, it does a pretty good job at protecting the piston..
most lurkers and pretty much 90% of BITOGers here are notoriously obsessed RE: overdoing things here on BITOG: from making their engines a mosquito fogger by using vacuum line feeding some stoddard solvent/kerosene mix, to nitpicking on marketing buzzwords on certain so-called "boutique" oils, additives, etc. and they have fun day-n-nite arguing till face turn blue.
Fact is: engine is designed to provide service, and if it gets to 200k or 300k+ of service before they become worn or tired and in need of major overhaul, it just means that their job is done.
Some engines were not properly designed/engineered due to whatever reasons, and these are the ones that may need additional helping every now and then. Examples like earlier Audi DI engines carboning up is a good example. Ditto with some other engines (such as the late Saab engines) where you must run some sort of high resiliency full-syn oil to keep it from thermal breakdowns, etc.
Fortunately, over 99% of the utilitarian grade engines out there still servicing the motoring world w/o too much fuss, and companies such as turdle-wax, etc. would still try to sell you a miracle-mile-in-a-can (just because they can) with all forms of buzzwords such as UCL, etc. that other motoring nation never have come across in their century....
Sorry folks, obsessions can only go so far. I live on the facts and I don't see much common sense these days....
Q.
I don't know about the "miracle in a bottle" stuff being absolutely necessary, but at the least a detergent level higher than EPA or (California) CARB minimums may be helpful. The Top Tier standard/organization was created by several automakers, and apparently their reason for this was because of all the vehicles being brought in for warranty issues due to residual and/or carbon deposits. They're not doing this to make money from licensing fees.
At the very least, the automakers themselves have sold bottled detergents. ACDelco has several. One bottle shape barely hides who made it for them. It's pretty well known that Chevron Techron Concentrate has been the basis for several fuel treatments sold at dealers. There's also a BMW part number, for which there are several aftermarket fuel treatments marketed as meeting the same requirements.
Yes they do. It's additional revenue. If people are going to buy the miracle in a bottle, why shouldn't they get into the game?
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