TEST/ DEMO - the story on additives

[metroplex]

Interesting.
I was told to run 80W-140 in a commercial HD application, such as a E-250 that does some heavy hauling.

If you spin the gears too quickly with a thicker oil such as 80W-140, then I can see why it'd cavitate. But for its intended application (low speed differentials, etc) it might be more suited.

As TooSLick said, a 75W-90 or 80W-90 synthetic would be more suited to a higher speed differential.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Bob,

I think what happens when you thicken the oil this much - or use a 75w-140 to start with - is that you are getting cavitation in the gear tooth contact zone and this is entraining the air. I think you should use a 75w-90 or 80w-90 synthetic in order to make this a better comparison.

As for the merits of using a "tackified" gear lube in an enclosed diff - well I'll save that discussion for another time ....

Nice pics!

---

Well, If the viscosity for those gears and speed was an issue, did you notice the motor oil? 15w40. An 80w90 is the same viscosity as a 20w50 so since the 15w40 is less viscosity, and still have the air in it as well. BTW, in a rear end, the axle turns the same speed as the tires, which is splined into the third member which something in the third member has to mate up with and turn so, you'll find that there is components in the rearend that will vary past the speeds of this demo. Quick note, we started out slow and air was already forming.

I don't agree that the 140 should be trapping air at that speed as it wasn't all that fast. I do have a simple egg beater gear box, and upon turning it, which is at a much slower speed, I can get the same results as the 140 did with air trapped.. Heres a basic ring and pinion gear assemble for those that are not familiar with what one might look like. Notice, one big gear, one small gear, small is going to turn much fast than the big one.

Also, the truck lube center stated they have seen this problem but had no idea why.

MS, many newer rigs are using a full synth 140 for warr purposes, so that's what the viscosity is called for to keep extended warr.

[ January 22, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[metroplex]

what pumpkin is that?

Looks sorta like a Ford 8.8"

where's the differential?

 

[outrun]

I have used the Lucas Trans additive...whether it caused what you demonstrated["frothing"] is another situation.

A)Did you use the Lucas in the prescribed proportions? Or what proportion did you use?

B)Would Lucas adding an AntiFoaming additive correct this experiment to give us a better result?

C)Since this display was not a functional engine or Ring-Pinion set-up would an oil analysis be the only near definative answer of Lucas claims?

I am not trying to defend Lucas with customer faith. Lucas is more respectable than the Slick50, Z-Max and what not shams. Just trying to ensure some measure of fairness to their company-

 

[OneQuartLow]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:

Just what everyone needs, a Glowing Rear End!"

Seriously, though, how do they get power to the neon tube?

---

Selectables already need power, linkage, or an air line. It is just a little silly though.

Ah well, signs of old age.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

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Originally posted by outrun:
I have used the Lucas Trans additive...whether it caused what you demonstrated["frothing"] is another situation.

A)Did you use the Lucas in the prescribed proportions? Or what proportion did you use?

B)Would Lucas adding an AntiFoaming additive correct this experiment to give us a better result?

C)Since this display was not a functional engine or Ring-Pinion set-up would an oil analysis be the only near definative answer of Lucas claims?

I am not trying to defend Lucas with customer faith. Lucas is more respectable than the Slick50, Z-Max and what not shams. Just trying to ensure some measure of fairness to their company-

---

I totally understand, no problem asking good questions.

First, I used the same basic demo they use with the counter top displays, difference is mine has a motor and speed control, so yes, using what they use as a demo, would IMO, be a good representation of it's reaction in a gear like transmissions or rearends.

To ensure that I did not overload it with pure lucas, I had the machine running, and then we added lucas only until the oil started to climb which is what the designed of this additive provides. Once the oil started to climb we immediatly stopped. This IMO, would have been the appropriate amount for that little amount of given oil. Anything more would have been a waste and I wanted it to be as close of a representation as possible. Given this outcome, I had talked with our truck lube center who has and still does sell the lucas product to many of their truck clients. They reported that they found many of their gear oils were in fact coming back with air in them and had customers commenting on how the unit was running hotter than before. They had no idea why, until we did this little experiment and they then realize now why it's doing that. I for one, wouldn't have predicted this but after seeing this, I then realize why and it makes total sense since you are adding in more "petroleum" base stock oil, and no additional additives to keep this additional oil from foaming, the blenders of the original oils(penz in this case) had designed their oil to handle foaming with a proper amount of additives given the base stock they had with it. Adding more base stock oil without adding more additives to offset this, imbalanced the additive package to such a point to cause this reaction.

Metro, I have no idea as to what rear end pumpkin that is, just took a shot so to give an idea of the basic ring and pinion design which is what starts the lubrication process or splash effect on these units. The oil is pulled up by the ring gear and splashed around, but only as your speed increases, which I can assure that it will froth any gear oil if the antifoam additives are not balanced for the amount of oil used.

[ January 23, 2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[metroplex]

Bob, you didn't mention that the pinion gear is almost entirely submerged.

If I remember correctly, the point where the ring gear and pinion gear mesh is actually under the fill hole. Which means its almost entirely submerged.

I did a Ford 8.8" overhaul just a week ago. Had to install a new differential (swapped over the ring gear), new carrier bearings, new backlash adjustment, etc... I remember the magnetic fill plug being above the pinion gear slightly.

In your pic, it looks like a Ford 8.8" turned upside down (altho the 8.8s I worked on never had the two holes on the gasket mounting surface, so its probably a GM or something)

The gears in your test box might have to be submerged more - but I'm not an expert at testing gear oils. I do know that if you churn soapy water at the surface, you'll create foam. If you churn soapy water under the surface and never create that disturbance, it won't get foamy.
Wouldn't this apply to gear oils?
I'm not advocating Lucas in any way - I don't use the stuff. I firmly believe in using whatever was specified for that application (gear oil in pumpkin case, engine oil in engine, no extra additives).

As for the 140 weight...

E-150s need to use 75W-140, while E-250s with a Dana 60 (9.75 ring gear) must use SAE 90 for warranty purposes.

well I did some checking and dino SAE 90 isn't the same as 80W-90 or 75W-90, but in fact something like Royal Purple or Redline 80W-140 would be closer to SAE 90 based on viscosity at 40C and 100C.

Police cars are supposed to have synth 75W-140 from the factory according to my service guide, while non fleet/police/taxi Crown Vics use 80W-90, a lighter weight oil compared to SAE 90 or 75w-140. Redline even admits that their 80W-140 is about 5% less efficient than their 75w-90, but they recommend 80W-140 for commercial heavy-duty trucks that do hauling (E-250 that carries building materials all day long, etc).

Or would 80W-90 provide adequate protection for the E-250? It's got a Dana 60 w/ 3.73s and a limited slip diff (traction-lok or trak-loc, whatever Dana/Spicer sells to Ford).

[ January 23, 2003, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I don't think you're correct metro, but I'll look further into this and see.

BTW, while you have the answers to this, why then are trucks coming in with the same problem demonstrated by the demo machine?

[ January 23, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[metroplex]

Low fluid level?

The use of gear oils that do not have adequate anti-foaming agents? Maybe they used Lucas oil stabilizer?

I know my t-bird had a foaming problem with Valvoline synpower 75W-90. I cracked it open and saw tiny air bubbles in the oil that stuck to the ring gear. But the oil came out dark like your new Schaeffer's 267.

I have yet to see any gear oil come out of a rear differential that looked like the Lucas'fied gear oil. The Pennzoil Super 75W-90 I removed from my Crown Vic did not have air bubbles. I drive my vehicles around for a few miles before cracking open the case to change the oil.

[ January 23, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

That's what I was talking about, the ones that used lucas was having all the air and heat problems in their rear ends.

 

[porterdog]

Two things about the foaming issue-

1) You can totally see the same thing on some of the Lucas demonstrators. IME, it wasn't bad with the hand crank one but the eggbeater one foamed like mad. Not very good marketing

2) Regarding the pinion location- I don't think it will matter; even if the pinion were completely submerged you'd still have the ring gear partially out, and it would entrain air as it re-entered the oil pool.

$0.02,
Robert

 

[mdv]

quote:

---

Originally posted by metroplex:
The gears in your test box might have to be submerged more - but I'm not an expert at testing gear oils. I do know that if you churn soapy water at the surface, you'll create foam. If you churn soapy water under the surface and never create that disturbance, it won't get foamy.
Wouldn't this apply to gear oils?

---

Even if the pinion gear is totally submerged, wouldn't it be unusual for the entire ring gear to be submerged as well? If so, there will still be plenty of churning at the surface to facilitate foam formation.

 

[outrun]

I have done more pondering on this test.

A)Suppose it was done on an engine.

B)The stuff seems super sticky.

C) Do you suppose that thier is some credibility that this Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer will in fact adhere to Cylinder and bearing surfaces AFTER engine shutdown? (while the oil gravity drains back to the pan

D) If it does in fact stay on the metal surfaces then would it be a fair assumption that on engien start-ups a better than nothing lubrication layer is thier for added protection?

E)As far as the aeration of lubricant does not a Crankshaft whip the pan oil to splash the cylinders (assuming again it is not a BMW w/pressurized oil cylider lubrication or a dry-sump system)

Based on this you action you generate windage.....as what I am alluding to is that even bottled oils must aerate to an extent Lucas or not?

Thanks and I hope you can see my question through my reasoning.

 

[Ken2]

C) Oil certainly remains on the engine's surfaces...otherwise the inside of the engine would look like steel wool after every start.

D) Your assumption doesn't hold water...the engine has all the lube it needs for starting.

E) The only way the crank will ever whip the oil is if way, way too much oil is added or there's a huge coolant leak into the crankcase, or something like this. The Crank whipping in the oil will probably break the crankshaft. Didn't the pre-54 Chevies and similar engines have oil scoops on the bottom ends of the conn rod caps that would grab some oil and splash it around inside the engine for splash lubrication?...still some small lawn mower type engines do this.


Ken

 

[metroplex]

True but keep in mind the ring gear rotates at a slower speed than the pinion gear.

The pinion gear is spinning like a drill while the ring gear spins slightly slower (due to the ratio differences in the gears themselves).

I'm not sure about what method to use for testing gear oil, but like I suggested a few posts up to use a clear rear end cover and spin the actual differential or maybe a make shift setup very similar to a R+P setup.

Again I'm not an expert on testing methods, just calling some stuff out as I think of em. Feel free to shoot em down.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

What Ken2 said is true, the crank is not submerged in the oil and the oil levels are well below the crank, otherwise, they would in deed whip the oil. Some smaller lawn type engines do use the slingers on the bottom of the crank to throw oil around but not in normal engines.

In regards to this little test, It's not to show how bad lucas is, but to demonstrate how adding additives can really imbalance oils already designed and blended additive packages and how many of us do not know just how it will effect the outcome of the oil. In this case, it could very well affect the powerstrokes ability to maintain proper oil pressure for the injectors and being that it is sticky, it could cause possible injector damage, which I believe is not a cheap thing to replace.

Point, why play with additives in a 30-$40,000 vehicle when there is oils out there that do an excellent job, already blended properly and will not risk voiding warr's?

[ January 24, 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[metroplex]

Bob, any word on the oil test methodology?

I'm in no way complaining about your current methods, in fact I find them very informative about various popular gear oils and engine oils.

I don't have the resources to test everything myself, and your tests have provided a great deal of insight.

 

[dragboat]

To the top ,,,here is a analysis with a full quart of the Lucas used with 4 quarts of a high VI oil. Look at the wear in PPM per 2k miles. Although I certainly would not do this,,,can't argue with the numbers

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000169

 

[Michael Verbick]

This is a very good topic. I also believe in using a high quality oil with no additives.

 

[7TFord]

Bob: I've never added anything to any of my fluids except maybe once about 10 years ago I tried "Slick 50" in one of my vehicles. Started using synthetics about the same time and have been experimenting a bit with different manufacturers since. Very interesting test. I am wondering if anyone has had any experience with Castrol "Syntec" 75W-90 gear oil? Is the fact that the Pennzoil didn't climb the gears initially in the experiment of great concern? Do other synthetics behave this way? Would it have clinged any better if the temp was say 0? I can see the importance of cold start lubrication in an engine but is it really that critical in a gear set for that short of a time? Also, how is the addition of friction modifier to a limited slip differential compare as an additive in the context of your experiment?

Thanks.