SHC Synthese Technology (Mobil 1 New Life 0W40)

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Originally Posted By: Garak
[... For my 250,000 km Audi, 5w-40 or 0w-40 would be great year round grades, but I didn't use them often. I was sticking with conventional for the most part, since the manual doesn't call for any of the ACEA or Audi/VW oil specs.

Sounds good, but I was recommended to use non-dino oil for turboharger car & prone for sludge issue (overheating the oil).
 
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It wasn't a lawsuit,

It sure was. The Castrol v BP suit was the basis for Germany's truth in labelling law concerning motor oil.
I was mistaken about it being Mobil.

The OP is in Hungary and is buying and using Euro product.
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As others have pointed out time and time again, the average North American consumer thinks Mobil 1 when they think synthetic oil. They don't think PU, PP, RP, or Redline, and I'm sure Liqui Moly is at the bottom of the average consumer's product recognition list


We are not talking about North America in this thread.
Where the OP lives Liqui Moly is very well known and hardly any one has even heard of PP, PU, or Redline.

It has nothing to do with Liqui Moly which was just used as an truth in advertising example or even the quality of the oils at all.

When Mobil 1 was labelled Full Synthetic it cost a lot of money in Europe partly because the tax laws in some countries differentiate between lubricant types, when Mobil used a cheaper earth oil base stock the tax is much lower but they still charge the same price for this oil.
It has nothing to do with quality, is it any good or not or anything else just consumer price point.
If you bothered to read the thread you would know this already, but you just jumped in saw something you didn't like and decided to enlighten us.
 
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To late to edit.
I did get Castrol and Mobil mixed up as to the country the lawsuits took place in.
but it was a lawsuit.
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Many years ago, a case was brought by Castrol Germany against BP over claims by BP that their motor oil,
formulated with LHC hydro-cracked, was a SYNTHETIC oil.
Castrol won the case meaning that if SYNTHETIC is claimed it must be formulated with genuine synthetic, not
hydro-cracked.
Some years later-when hydro-cracked materials became widely available in the market place-Mobil took Castrol to
court in America over the claims that their oil was a SYNTHETIC when formulated with hydro-cracked stocks.
The American court ruled against Mobil & as such opened the “flood gates” for the oil industry to call hydro-cracked
stocks SYNTHETIC everywhere except in Germany.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
It sure was. The Castrol v BP suit was the basis for Germany's truth in labelling law concerning motor oil.
I was mistaken about it being Mobil.


Not in North America, though, it wasn't. This has been addressed time and time again. It was a complaint in the United States in front of a national advertising regulatory board. That isn't a lawsuit. If you claim a lawsuit, please provide the court reference information. Such information is available on every lawsuit, from small claims to the biggest murder trial.

Originally Posted By: Trav
We are not talking about North America in this thread.
Where the OP lives Liqui Moly is very well known and hardly any one has even heard of PP, PU, or Redline.

It has nothing to do with Liqui Moly which was just used as an truth in advertising example or even the quality of the oils at all.

When Mobil 1 was labelled Full Synthetic it cost a lot of money in Europe partly because the tax laws in some countries differentiate between lubricant types, when Mobil used a cheaper earth oil base stock the tax is much lower but they still charge the same price for this oil.
It has nothing to do with quality, is it any good or not or anything else just consumer price point.
If you bothered to read the thread you would know this already, but you just jumped in saw something you didn't like and decided to enlighten us.


I read the entire thread, and I realize that the bulk of the discussion is about European oils. You're still missing the point. Manufacturers' proprietary specifications in Europe have far outpaced synthetic/synthetic technology labeling, ACEA specifications, and API/ILSAC specifications. If an engine calls for a certain MB or VW/Audi specification, or even an ACEA specification, the oil chosen is either certified or it is not, and the composition of the base stock is irrelevant, as far as it isn't a base stock insufficient to meet the spec in the first place (i.e. a Group I wouldn't do the job).

With respect to labeling, if I were in charge of marketing in an oil company in Europe, I'd abandon the term "full synthetic" altogether. I'd ensure that the oil is certified for whatever target market I have, and price it as high as the market would sustain.

I'm sorry, but German truth in marketing legislation has simply not kept the issue clear. ExxonMobil and everyone else are doing their best to muddy the waters, and understandably so. This isn't 1980s North America, where one chose a 5w-30 or 10w-30 with the latest API spec, and one chose synthetic or conventional, and the prices reflected the difference.

The complex European specs have superseded that distinction. A lot of the individual specifications' components essentially require a synthetic, be it III/III+ or IV or V. An oil purchaser should be more interested in meeting the appropriate specification than the base stock composition. I don't care whether its virgin crude or recycled oil, or Group III or Group IV. There are plenty of boutique synthetics in the world that offer all kinds of nice expensive base stocks, yet have no certifications or plenty of outdated certifications. For an old vehicle, fine; for something under warranty or that has issues the require a properly speced oil, that's another matter.

I appreciate the concern over price. However, the market carries what it will. I don't like having to defend the oil companies, but one cannot blame them for selling a product for whatever people will pay and monkeying around with nomenclature to accomplish that. Secondly, there is plenty of blame to go around. The European tax regime is oppressive to the point that European manufacturers had to come up with these extremely extended oil drain intervals and proprietary specifications.

If it costs ExxonMobil $5 to make a 0w-40 PAO, and they retail it for $10, and it costs them $1 to make a 0w-40 blend/Group III/Group III+ and they sell it for $8, I'm going to buy the latter if they both meet specs and perform equally well. Sure, ExxonMobil's profit is way higher. I get an equally performing oil for less money, and ExxonMobil makes a higher profit. We both win. If the government gets less taxes out of it, so much the better.

There always is a choice. If one doesn't believe that Group III/III+ synthetics should be in the same price ballpark as Group IV or V synthetics, then don't buy them.
 
Originally Posted By: zoli
Sounds good, but I was recommended to use non-dino oil for turboharger car & prone for sludge issue (overheating the oil).


That's a fair issue and should be considered. However, my Audi is a turbo, and saw mostly conventional. The other important issue is the mileage on your car. You have something like 350,000 km on it? How long do you plan on keeping it? If you plan on keeping it for at least another 200,000 km (or some other high, arbitrary number), then sure, go for synthetic to minimize sludging and coking. If you're not going to keep it for an extended period, why bother feeding it the expensive stuff?

If you want the synthetic or synthetic technology, go for what hurts your wallet the least. It's not like you can get conventional for North American prices there anyhow.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
You have something like 350,000 km on it? How long do you plan on keeping it? If you plan on keeping it for at least another 200,000 km (or some other high, arbitrary number), then sure, go for synthetic to minimize sludging and coking.

Yes, the target is 500,000 km, what is not impossible with this engine. The previous owner gave a good maintenance and well recorded history. I use this car for daily commute (50 km per day) - and this is my hobby as well. Some photos are here . The previous car was a 35 yrs old VW Bug 1.3 LX ; much fun but less comfort and much expensive maintenance; a traffic accident finished this project.
But anyway, this good Swedish leather enterior & excellent hifi and easy to maintain GM engine absolutly fine for me for longer time!!!
grin.gif
 
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Not in North America, though, it wasn't. This has been addressed time and time again. It was a complaint in the United States in front of a national advertising regulatory board. That isn't a lawsuit. If you claim a lawsuit, please provide the court reference information. Such information is available on every lawsuit, from small claims to the biggest murder trial.


Again you need to stop with the North American thing, legal transcripts of German court cases are generally not open to everyone. This case is well known and has been for many years if you want to claim otherwise then do your own research.
I don't know what it was in the U.S.and never claimed otherwise.
I'm sure some of the details have been published so google.de is your friend. Here is something to start with it gives you the dates.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5322/is_200409/ai_n21355553/

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This has been addressed time and time again.

Show me where the German law has been addressed time and time again, you make this statement often, show where it has been discussed time and again here on BITOG.

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If it costs ExxonMobil $5 to make a 0w-40 PAO, and they retail it for $10, and it costs them $1 to make a 0w-40 blend/Group III/Group III+ and they sell it for $8, I'm going to buy the latter if they both meet specs and perform equally well. Sure, ExxonMobil's profit is way higher. I get an equally performing oil for less money,

I don't disagree about oil meeting specs and all that but they are not selling it cheaper its the same price, you save nothing.
I was recently in a German shop and both the old and new were in the same line for the same price.
These new oils have not been around very long so whether or not they are as good or not as the version they replaced in real world driving wont be known for some time.

Please don't turn the thread into one of the merits of GpIII v Gp IV because it isn't, now that really has been discussed time and time again here at BITOG. The OP asked a simple question.
Quote:
Mobil 1 New Life 0W40: SHC Synthese Technology; Made in EU. This oil must be fully synthetic and not hydrocracked semisynthetic. Or am I wrong?

That's the question trying to answered.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yup. I remember when that secret VISOM presentation leaked out, there was a slide in there mentioning that the DE market regulatory constraints will need to be addressed somehow when this new formulation appears. Looks like they've addressed it by creating some tricky mambo-jumbo nomenclature, but they were still forced to show "synthetic technology" on the label.


It's still on the Internet. Here is the presentation (slow loading): ExxonMobil Presentation

Mobil 1 section starts on slide #15. The Germany discussion is on slide #30.

Tom NJ
 
Trav & Garak: Thx for different points of views - seems to me both of you are very deep in synthetics!
thumbsup2.gif

Now I learned very well: it's not black or white (synthetic or semi-synthetic) and we don't know very well, what's in the canister.
Hungary, if I want to a buy a 'true' synthetic oil (probably into my new SAAB
20.gif
) I wil stick Liqui-Moly or Fuchs (excellent German brands).
 
Thanks for the link. This is interesting. Excerpts from PDF.

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To maintain market relevant pricing
• As PAO supply has tightened globally, raw material costs have increased
substantially. In the future, an exclusively PAO formulation may be priced out of
the market or result in significant margin erosion.

Quote:
With the exception of Germany, this reformulation will be invisible to
consumers and B2B customers.
• There will be no proactive customer communication relating to this
reformulation. However, an internal briefing document and Q&A has
been prepared to allow sales to respond in the unlikely event of a
customer question.
Due to the unique definition of synthetic in Germany (Synthetic = 100%
PAO) this reformulation is visible to the consumer and B2B customers.
• A more proactive communication is being prepared for German use


Edit:Zoli look at LM 0W40 its a Full synthetic PAO.
In the U.S. i buy Mobil 1 regardless if its Gplll or GplV because its cheap.
In Germany if I'm going to spend 70-80+ Euros ($100-120) for 4 ltr i want what i paid for. Synthetic Technology Gplll oils are only 40-50 euros.
 
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Originally Posted By: zoli
Yes, the target is 500,000 km, what is not impossible with this engine. The previous owner gave a good maintenance and well recorded history. I use this car for daily commute (50 km per day) - and this is my hobby as well.


The pics are nice! Geeze, you guys get clobbered on filter prices, too. That Mann filter here is like $7 Canadian, and the Bosch is under $4. That fuel filter looks to be the same as my Audi's.

For my Audi turbo (not known for sludging, but still a turbo), the 15w-40 conventional HDEO was sufficient, but I didn't use very extended OCIs, either. You have a longer commute than I did. What does the manual recommend for OCIs (both on regular and severe service)? What OCIs are you aiming at? While you have a long commute, how hard do you drive it? I'm just trying to get a few details so I can offer a few suggestions.

I know that European oil pricing can be nuts, and that's why your spreadsheet helped. I don't know how much cheaper conventional is over synthetic. As I previously suggested, the Total Quartz Energy 9000 5w-40 is very competitively priced, relatively speaking. Another quality option, though I don't know how available it is to you, or how expensive it is to you, is Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40. Doug Hillary uses it in his Boxster, if I recall correctly. I ran it in my Audi for a time, and it was my "favourite" synthetic for that application. It was good in winter, and didn't get consumed, unlike the lighter 10w-30 or 5w-30 grades that were also permissible for winter.

That one oil change you posted for 52 Euros is expensive by Canadian standards, but not totally out of line. If I picked up a similar oil at regular price at a local parts store and grabbed the filter from a local European dealer, I'd probably pay only about 15% less for the whole oil change. I could probably get the Mann for under $5, though, since a place we have called Partsource is starting to sell the European Manns at a very nice price.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Show me where the German law has been addressed time and time again, you make this statement often, show where it has been discussed time and again here on BITOG.


As you pointed out, it was a German case, so the German case itself hasn't likely been addressed here. However, posters here are well aware of the rules in Germany with respect to labeling an oil as synthetic.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I don't disagree about oil meeting specs and all that but they are not selling it cheaper its the same price, you save nothing.
I was recently in a German shop and both the old and new were in the same line for the same price.
These new oils have not been around very long so whether or not they are as good or not as the version they replaced in real world driving wont be known for some time.

Please don't turn the thread into one of the merits of GpIII v Gp IV because it isn't, now that really has been discussed time and time again here at BITOG. The OP asked a simple question.


I don't want to turn it into a debate about the merits of either. Both have their merits, but for me, base stock is more of something I'm curious to know, rather than make it a major factor in a purchasing decision. With respect to price, it's up to the market. If they're selling it at the same price as the primarily PAO version, that's between ExxonMobil and those that choose to purchase the oil or choose to pass on it. I wouldn't have any doubts about its ability to do the job, however. If it were available here, it would be as worthy a choice in my Audi as would "regular" Mobil 1 0w-40 or Delvac 1 5w-40.

Quote:
Mobil 1 New Life 0W40: SHC Synthese Technology; Made in EU. This oil must be fully synthetic and not hydrocracked semisynthetic. Or am I wrong?

Originally Posted By: Trav
That's the question trying to answered.


And I agree that it isn't a terribly easy one to answer. Companies are doing their utmost to tapdance around the issue of labeling, and have been doing so for years. Does anyone have a pour point for this product? With that of the PAO M1 0w-40 being around -54 C, at least we have somewhat of a baseline.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
What does the manual recommend for OCIs (both on regular and severe service)? What OCIs are you aiming at? While you have a long commute, how hard do you drive it? I'm just trying to get a few details so I can offer a few suggestions.

OCI = 7500-10000 km (you live in CAN, so mile calculation is unnecessary!
grin.gif
)
Commute driving is gentle (mostly by cruise-control at 60 and 100 km/h, 2000-2500 rpm); turbo 'starts' to work at 1800 rpm
Thx in advance for any advise!
 
Well, it sounds like you're driving style on the highway is a lot like mine, and RPMs are similar. If that engine is a known sludger, you would have to be careful, of course. Aside from that, the 7500 km to 10000 km OCI isn't terribly long. My Audi recommends up to 12500 km for non-severe service, if I recall correctly, and I didn't take it that long on conventional. Also, particularly on conventional, I gave the turbo a minute to cool down before shutdown if I had been using anything in the way of boost shortly before stopping.

Assuming that it might be a bit sludge prone, I would be aiming for something around the 7500 km mark if using conventional and stretching it perhaps to the 10000 km mark if using a synthetic. What you really have to consider, then, is price. If synthetic is only a tiny bit more money than conventional, then it's certainly worth it. If it's more than double the price, then there's a problem.

Personally, from your spreadsheet, I still like the Total Quartz Energy 9000 5w-40. It's in the viscosity range you need and the price is certainly right. You also noted good UOA results on that oil. GC and M1 0w-40 are certainly good choices, but they're almost double the price.

If cost weren't an option, sure, I'd go M1 0w-40. It's a well known, high quality oil and it exceeds all your requirements. That price tag is a little harder to swallow. Is the Total Quartz readily available there?
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Is the Total Quartz readily available there?

Yes, easy to buy anywhere. Only problem with it: semi-synthetic (group III.) and no any antiwear package inside.
 
Originally Posted By: zoli
Originally Posted By: Garak
Is the Total Quartz readily available there?

Yes, easy to buy anywhere. Only problem with it: semi-synthetic (group III.) and no any antiwear package inside.


That doesn't make it a "semi-synthetic", it makes it a Group III "synthetic".
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: zoli
Originally Posted By: Garak
Is the Total Quartz readily available there?

Yes, easy to buy anywhere. Only problem with it: semi-synthetic (group III.) and no any antiwear package inside.


That doesn't make it a "semi-synthetic", it makes it a Group III "synthetic".


Yup, Group III is synthetic. In Germany it would be synthetic technology. Semi-synthetic means a large amount of less than Group III. There's also plenty of anti-wear additives. Look at the specs it meets
thumbsup2.gif
 
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