QuatteoPete: yeah, GHT, aka Joseph is back sad to say
Run transmission fluid in place of engine oil?
- Thread starter Turbo_Lemming
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I never heard run the engine entirely on ATF. I heard the age old add a qt of ATF to clean the motor. I think this goes back to the day when most oils were heavy, like 20w50 or 10w40 and the thinner oil cleaned and loosened up crud. Iam old enough to remember 10w30 being the radical thin oil, that was before 5w30.
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It would just be thin, non-detergent motor oil. Well, not quite, it does have some additives, but nowhere near what you'd find in motor oil.
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Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
do it and post results.
I want to see the UOA!!!!
do it and post results.
I want to see the UOA!!!!
i sure would love to see someone test the atf theory with a allison approved with an AN number atf oil like a castrol transynd or other allison approved tes-295 in engine . i am pretty sure the detergent myth is that only myth!
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Why would you consider it. There are better products to clean the engine.
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Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Or
This is a valid technique. ATF is an excellent penetrant and cleans much better than oil.
I'd be interested in seeing some actual evidence of such cleaning.
Yes, any SAE tests about this?
I don't think the SAE is in the business of validating cleaning compounds; it's kind of random and inconsistent to think they'd set up lengthy tests about that and then demand the lack there of is somehow significant.
Look at the ingredients of lots of bore cleaners (ATF) and penetrating formulas (ATF and Acetone). Then go try them out. You can sit at the keyboard and pontificate, but there's no substitute for actually doing it and noting the results. It's been common practice for 50+ years.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Or
This is a valid technique. ATF is an excellent penetrant and cleans much better than oil.
I'd be interested in seeing some actual evidence of such cleaning.
Yes, any SAE tests about this?
I don't think the SAE is in the business of validating cleaning compounds; it's kind of random and inconsistent to think they'd set up lengthy tests about that and then demand the lack there of is somehow significant.
Look at the ingredients of lots of bore cleaners (ATF) and penetrating formulas (ATF and Acetone). Then go try them out. You can sit at the keyboard and pontificate, but there's no substitute for actually doing it and noting the results. It's been common practice for 50+ years.
Back before detergent oils atf was often added to help clean right before an oil change. Today's oils have much more detergent so atf won't help but like pz and sludge the wives tale never ends
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Back before detergent oils atf was often added to help clean right before an oil change. Today's oils have much more detergent so atf won't help but like pz and sludge the wives tale never ends
It isn't the detergent action that makes it useful. The "wives tale" is repeating that. More keyboard wisdom I guess.
Back before detergent oils atf was often added to help clean right before an oil change. Today's oils have much more detergent so atf won't help but like pz and sludge the wives tale never ends
It isn't the detergent action that makes it useful. The "wives tale" is repeating that. More keyboard wisdom I guess.
ATF is ~a 10W oil. I can't imagine a scenario of using all ATF. If I were stranded somewhere and the only available oil was ATF, I would use it.
Somewhat OT, My dad never changed the oil on his 1956 Pontiac. It finally sludged up so much that some the lifters collapsed and several of the rockers rotated off the valves. After cleaning all the sludge from the top of the heads, I put in 3 qts. 30w and 2 qts. #2 diesel. Ran it for an hour and drained it. Did that 2 more times. Cleaned every thing up, buttoned it up and he ran it for 3 more years.
Somewhat OT, My dad never changed the oil on his 1956 Pontiac. It finally sludged up so much that some the lifters collapsed and several of the rockers rotated off the valves. After cleaning all the sludge from the top of the heads, I put in 3 qts. 30w and 2 qts. #2 diesel. Ran it for an hour and drained it. Did that 2 more times. Cleaned every thing up, buttoned it up and he ran it for 3 more years.
Originally Posted By: Or
It isn't the detergent action that makes it useful. The "wives tale" is repeating that. More keyboard wisdom I guess.
Oh what is it then?
It isn't the detergent action that makes it useful. The "wives tale" is repeating that. More keyboard wisdom I guess.
Oh what is it then?
Quote:
Look at the ingredients of lots of bore cleaners (ATF) and penetrating formulas (ATF and Acetone). Then go try them out.
You are advocating that someone should go against their engine manufacturer strict guidance and dump something other than engine oil into the crank case. OK...
Originally Posted By: Or
but there's no substitute for actually doing it and noting the results.
Right, so presumably you have done it and can share your results here? Other than cleaning results, it'd also be interesting to see the results of possible engine damage/wear from doing this. Something more than just "it still runs" would be helpful.
Look at the ingredients of lots of bore cleaners (ATF) and penetrating formulas (ATF and Acetone). Then go try them out.
You are advocating that someone should go against their engine manufacturer strict guidance and dump something other than engine oil into the crank case. OK...
Originally Posted By: Or
but there's no substitute for actually doing it and noting the results.
Right, so presumably you have done it and can share your results here? Other than cleaning results, it'd also be interesting to see the results of possible engine damage/wear from doing this. Something more than just "it still runs" would be helpful.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
You are advocating that someone should go against their engine manufacturer strict guidance and dump something other than engine oil into the crank case. OK...
I have no strict prohibition in any manual against maintenance additives. You might in your unique vehicle's manual. But it's a gross fallacy to state this broadly. And engine flushes with mild solvents has been manufacture recommended. from Mercedes. from GM. From... the list goes on.
I have posted my results on this forum, so have others. It cleans, it's safe, it works. The mix of fractional ATF in engine oil 30w or better is still thicker than 20w oils. Do you really suspect that causes added wear? Really?
Guys, there's lots of info out there and instead of trying to shoot it down with assertions that don't understand the chemistry, go read.
You are advocating that someone should go against their engine manufacturer strict guidance and dump something other than engine oil into the crank case. OK...
I have no strict prohibition in any manual against maintenance additives. You might in your unique vehicle's manual. But it's a gross fallacy to state this broadly. And engine flushes with mild solvents has been manufacture recommended. from Mercedes. from GM. From... the list goes on.
I have posted my results on this forum, so have others. It cleans, it's safe, it works. The mix of fractional ATF in engine oil 30w or better is still thicker than 20w oils. Do you really suspect that causes added wear? Really?
Guys, there's lots of info out there and instead of trying to shoot it down with assertions that don't understand the chemistry, go read.
Originally Posted By: Or
Guys, there's lots of info out there and instead of trying to shoot it down with assertions that don't understand the chemistry, go read.
I have a minor in chemistry, not a lot I realize but it is something. Can you please explain the chemistry you apparently understand?
Guys, there's lots of info out there and instead of trying to shoot it down with assertions that don't understand the chemistry, go read.
I have a minor in chemistry, not a lot I realize but it is something. Can you please explain the chemistry you apparently understand?
OVERKILL
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Molakule posted a while back on why ATF used to work, and now doesn't, as a cleaner. I'll see if I can dig it up.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Found one of them:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
We need to qualify the time line and chemistries involved in this topic.
Back in the days ('50-'70) when people were running 10W40 and at a minimum, 10W30, the detergency package of those oils were less than that found in ATF.
Putting in a quart of 5W20 ATF before the oil change, not only thinned the oil, but provided a small increase in oil detergency and increased the dispersancy somewhat, because the ATF used naphthenic base oils.
Today, ATF has less detergents and less dispersants than modern engine oils, and offers no real AW protection over that of engine oils.
Of course, adding ATF to an engine which has a 5W20 or 0W20 engine oil is not going to do much with the vicosity, but again, offers no advantage wrt cleaning properties.
In my '62 Chevy with a 283, I too had a modulator diaphram leak in the PowerGlide which fed ATF from the tranny to the intake manifold. The burning of ATF deposited black soot on the plugs and blackended the tailpipe. The pistons affected had a layer of thick sooty deposits on them. If I had a tailgator, I would just back-off on the accelerator, which increased vacuum, and blew out some beautiful smoke which either made him pass or back-off.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
We need to qualify the time line and chemistries involved in this topic.
Back in the days ('50-'70) when people were running 10W40 and at a minimum, 10W30, the detergency package of those oils were less than that found in ATF.
Putting in a quart of 5W20 ATF before the oil change, not only thinned the oil, but provided a small increase in oil detergency and increased the dispersancy somewhat, because the ATF used naphthenic base oils.
Today, ATF has less detergents and less dispersants than modern engine oils, and offers no real AW protection over that of engine oils.
Of course, adding ATF to an engine which has a 5W20 or 0W20 engine oil is not going to do much with the vicosity, but again, offers no advantage wrt cleaning properties.
In my '62 Chevy with a 283, I too had a modulator diaphram leak in the PowerGlide which fed ATF from the tranny to the intake manifold. The burning of ATF deposited black soot on the plugs and blackended the tailpipe. The pistons affected had a layer of thick sooty deposits on them. If I had a tailgator, I would just back-off on the accelerator, which increased vacuum, and blew out some beautiful smoke which either made him pass or back-off.
OK, thanks OVERKILL.
So the bottom line is that it doesn't do a thing today and maybe did a little a long time ago.
So the bottom line is that it doesn't do a thing today and maybe did a little a long time ago.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
OK, thanks OVERKILL.
So the bottom line is that it doesn't do a thing today and maybe did a little a long time ago.
This is what I wanted to determine. I did a little reading and I also found a somewhat similar comparison, not here on BITOG but here you go http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=31723.0
So how about running diesel fuel as the cleaner? Thats another I have heard talked about as a cleaner. Apparently, since engines aren't carbed anymore, maybe these old tricks are unnecessary.
OK, thanks OVERKILL.
So the bottom line is that it doesn't do a thing today and maybe did a little a long time ago.
This is what I wanted to determine. I did a little reading and I also found a somewhat similar comparison, not here on BITOG but here you go http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=31723.0
So how about running diesel fuel as the cleaner? Thats another I have heard talked about as a cleaner. Apparently, since engines aren't carbed anymore, maybe these old tricks are unnecessary.
If you want to clean an engine out, dump some BG MOA in it. That stuff is LOADED with detergents.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=903897
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=903897
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Or
This is a valid technique. ATF is an excellent penetrant and cleans much better than oil.
How does it clean?
I'm thinking some equate a color change to black as cleaning.
I am reading it said that 1/4 sump and idle for 15 minutes or until hot is a good flush technique. Still trying to wrap my head around that ATF has NO detergents in it. That's also frequently said as a reason why old transmissions should never get new fluid. I think we need to examine where the idea that ATF has a massive amount of cleaning properties came from.
I also find information like this: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php...mp;postcount=10
Originally Posted By: Or
This is a valid technique. ATF is an excellent penetrant and cleans much better than oil.
How does it clean?
I'm thinking some equate a color change to black as cleaning.
I am reading it said that 1/4 sump and idle for 15 minutes or until hot is a good flush technique. Still trying to wrap my head around that ATF has NO detergents in it. That's also frequently said as a reason why old transmissions should never get new fluid. I think we need to examine where the idea that ATF has a massive amount of cleaning properties came from.
I also find information like this: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php...mp;postcount=10
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