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Originally Posted By: buster

In the aggregate, reducing guns may be the answer. Not all, but a good amount.

Again..exactly how would you do this. Nice sound bite..but exactly How???
 
I have no idea Al. Like I said, and posted, what worked in AU may not work here. Also, I'm not entirely anti gun. However, we have serious issues in this country and something has to change.
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Originally Posted By: buster
Australian comedian Jim Jefferies was the victim of a home invasion once. He was tied up and beaten, and his girlfriend was threatened with rape. So you might think he'd sympathize with the idea that Americans want guns to protect their families. Quite the opposite — he does an excellent job of summing up why so many foreigners are baffled by America's gun culture:

In Australia, we had the biggest massacre on Earth, and the Australian government went: "That's it! NO MORE GUNS." And we all went, "Yeah, all right then, that seems fair enough, really."

Now in America, you had the Sandy Hook massacre, where little tiny children died. And your government went, "Maybe ... we'll get rid of the big guns?" And 50 percent of you went, "EFF YOU, DON'T TAKE MY GUNS."

He continues with a blistering smackdown of the idea that Americans seek guns to keep their families safe:

You have guns because you like guns! That's why you go to gun conventions; that's why you read gun magazines! None of you give a bleep about home security. None of you go to home security conventions. None of you read Padlock Monthly. None of you have a Facebook picture of you behind a secure door.

He doesn't see at all how a gun would have helped him when his home was broken into. "I was naked at the time. I wasn't wearing my holster." How exactly would a gun have protected him? he asks. Was he supposed to be crouched at his windowsill, gun cocked, waiting on high alert for intruders?

By the way. Most people who are breaking into your house just want your [censored] TV! You think that people are coming to murder your family? How many ***** enemies do you have?"


So....you predicate your opinion on Constitutional rights in America on a comedy/rant from an Australian?

I would prefer a little more thought on the subject before forming an opinion...maybe even from an American comedian?

Nah, scratch that, they've not read the Constitution either...why let the facts derail a good rant that sells their brand?
 
Tell us more about how making booze, weed, coke, heroin, etc illegal reduced supply?
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: buster

In the aggregate, reducing guns may be the answer. Not all, but a good amount.

Again..exactly how would you do this. Nice sound bite..but exactly How???


Here's how:

Licensing.

Everyone who wants to own guns must carry a state or federal issued license, AND INSURANCE.

If you are caught without a license AND INSURANCE, you get ticketed, and your weapons impounded, until everything is brought back to status.

I have to have a license and insurance to operate a car, and a motorcycle.
I have to have a deed and insurance to own a home.

A bus driver needs a license to operate a bus, and carry passengers.
A trucker needs a CDL of the proper variety to drive the different types of rigs that he can.
A pilot needs to be licensed by the FAA in order to fly anything from a crop duster, to a 747, and also helicopters and F-22 fighters.

[censored], you need a license to operate a ham radio, for Pete's sake.

Why the heck don't we require licensing to prove that a gun owner is truly competent enough to own a weapon? And require the owner to carry insurance on their weapons in order to protect themselves and others in case that weapon is used against someone wrongly?

There's my answer for you.

You tell me why that won't work.

BC.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: buster

In the aggregate, reducing guns may be the answer. Not all, but a good amount.

Again..exactly how would you do this. Nice sound bite..but exactly How???


Prohibiting guns in the hands of criminals and the mentally ill is a great idea...and, coincidentally, it's already Federal Law.

So, let's start with better enforcement of those laws. Laws prohibiting straw purchases, laws prohibiting certain people from buying or owning guns, for example.

Hundreds of thousands of attempts by unauthorized purchasers every year.

And only dozens of prosecutions....

An area ripe for improvement.
 
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter


Here's how:

Licensing.

Everyone who wants to own guns must carry a state or federal issued license, AND INSURANCE.

If you are caught without a license AND INSURANCE, you get ticketed, and your weapons impounded, until everything is brought back to status.

I have to have a license and insurance to operate a car, and a motorcycle.
I have to have a deed and insurance to own a home.

A bus driver needs a license to operate a bus, and carry passengers.
A trucker needs a CDL of the proper variety to drive the different types of rigs that he can.
A pilot needs to be licensed by the FAA in order to fly anything from a crop duster, to a 747, and also helicopters and F-22 fighters.

[censored], you need a license to operate a ham radio, for Pete's sake.

Why the heck don't we require licensing to prove that a gun owner is truly competent enough to own a weapon? And require the owner to carry insurance on their weapons in order to protect themselves and others in case that weapon is used against someone wrongly?

There's my answer for you.

You tell me why that won't work.

BC.
Because thugs, killers, psychos don't follow rules is why. All your solution does is punish the people who don't plan on committing crimes and are the likely target of the folks planning on committing crimes.
 
BC - that would absolutely work. License and insurance required. We already do that for concealed carry, in every state except a few. Concealed carry is very regulated in Colorado, for example. It would absolutely reduce the number of law-abiding citizens who have guns.

But, here's the rub, what other Consitutional rights would you require to be licensed?

Speech? Voting?

I'd be in favor of licensing voting...prove your identity, prove that you can read, prove a basic understanding of the responsibilities of citizenship...then you get a license to vote...sound good?

But that might not stand up with the public, or the courts....

And if your intent was to reduce the number of criminals with guns...well...let's review what the definition of "criminal" is....
 
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Had to Google Jimmie Jeffries ... never heard of him before.

Having watched a few clips, pretty sure that I don't want to see him again.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ-1R29dZxI

Bear in mind that Australia had low gun violence before Port Arthur, and low gun violence AFTER Port Arthur, the draconian laws that were brought in following Port Arthur are credited with the change...but the event stunk
* My NSW premier tried to ban guns and was voted out. In his closing speech, he stated that "It's not until there's a massacre in Tasmania that Australia will get reasonable gun laws".
* Some many years later, there was a massacre in Tasmania;
* using a rifle that was handed in in an amnesty in another state.

As a result, 10-22s et. al are banned and openly referred to as assault weapons in the media (who know absolutely nothing technical about anything).

And 10mm Glocks, which have NEVER been sold to the public EVER are the weapon of choice on gangs, with nary a word on how so mnay of them are getting into the country or into their hands...we've no land borders, so every single one is a major failing of our security forces and Policing.

Few weeks ago, a workmate was killed when a neighbour manufactured a bomb and planted it to explode when the garage door was opened...there's some pretty serious laws against that too...

As to the licencing thing and cars, again, they only apply to the law abiding. Watching show last week, a 14 year old (legally can't drive for 3 years) was caught driving a stolen car...when asked who taught him to drive, he laughed in front of the rest of the gang "I just started stealing cars, and taught meself"

"Reasonable" laws only apply to reasonable, law abiding persons. I could trust anyone in my rifle club with a 10-22, or a Remington pump shotgun...I can't trust the gangs in Sydney with their 10mm Glocks...one are obeying laws even 'though they are stupid...the other it doesn't matter what the laws are.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter


Here's how:

Licensing.

Everyone who wants to own guns must carry a state or federal issued license, AND INSURANCE.

If you are caught without a license AND INSURANCE, you get ticketed, and your weapons impounded, until everything is brought back to status.

I have to have a license and insurance to operate a car, and a motorcycle.
I have to have a deed and insurance to own a home.

A bus driver needs a license to operate a bus, and carry passengers.
A trucker needs a CDL of the proper variety to drive the different types of rigs that he can.
A pilot needs to be licensed by the FAA in order to fly anything from a crop duster, to a 747, and also helicopters and F-22 fighters.

[censored], you need a license to operate a ham radio, for Pete's sake.

Why the heck don't we require licensing to prove that a gun owner is truly competent enough to own a weapon? And require the owner to carry insurance on their weapons in order to protect themselves and others in case that weapon is used against someone wrongly?

There's my answer for you.

You tell me why that won't work.

BC.
Because thugs, killers, psychos don't follow rules is why. All your solution does is punish the people who don't plan on committing crimes and are the likely target of the folks planning on committing crimes.

There you have it BC..next solution. You don't seem so understand that already laws are no followed. So more laws??? Ummmm...no. You want more laws that criminals don't already follow and Buster wants to collect guns well he didn't say that but how do you have fewer guns without collecting them???
 
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Originally Posted By: buster
This country may have to pull an Australia and just take all the guns away. It's just out of control. Sorry gun lovers.

http://www.vox.com/2015/3/24/8283199/gun-control-comedy-jefferies

Australian comedian perfectly sums up why other countries think US gun laws are crazy.


Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. Murders and suicides plummeted.

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback


Quote:
And it worked. That does not mean that something even remotely similar would work in the US — they are, needless to say, different countries — but it is worth at least looking at their experience.


My uncle's collection was appraised at about $1,200,000. Let's see your check!

Of course...I suspect there are more unregistered guns than registered guns...........
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Charleston church, virgin geek shooter college student in California, etc...

Nothing can stop an evil person.


Putting a gun in their hands sure makes the job a lot easier for them.

Would the Tsarnaev brothers have done more or less damage using guns rather than pressure cookers and fireworks? Be honest.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. Murders and suicides plummeted.

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback


Might want to re-read that article buster...it expressly stated "with firearms"...Actually, it sounds like they have just made a (steaming) LOAD of stuff up.

He states that 1996/97 saw the biggest reduction in homicides in the history of Oz...

homicides_australia_chart.jpg


He further makes the statement that buying back the guns resulted in a staggering 75% reduction in firearm suicides...that weren't made up for with other means.

suichisty.gif


I don't know what the author was smoking when he wrote your article, but clearly, Zack Beauchamp is playing with a different set of facts to the reality ... why he would do so I don't know if trying to spread knowledge.

Here's what was happening with firearm homicide before and after...indicating that something was happening, completely unrelated to gun availability anyway.

gr_guns_narrowweb__300x362,0.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
My uncle's collection was appraised at about $1,200,000. Let's see your check!

Of course...I suspect there are more unregistered guns than registered guns...........


Because the confiscation was aimed at law abiding people, the book rates were lower than the market value for 10-22s, Bennellis etc.

An AR, or an L1A1, which was illegal to own, even before the buyback got you $7K.

They knew that the Dads and Uncles would hand in their sporters, and paid them stuff all.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Australian comedian Jim Jefferies was the victim of a home invasion once. He was tied up and beaten, and his girlfriend was threatened with rape. So you might think he'd sympathize with the idea that Americans want guns to protect their families. Quite the opposite — he does an excellent job of summing up why so many foreigners are baffled by America's gun culture:

In Australia, we had the biggest massacre on Earth, and the Australian government went: "That's it! NO MORE GUNS." And we all went, "Yeah, all right then, that seems fair enough, really."

Now in America, you had the Sandy Hook massacre, where little tiny children died. And your government went, "Maybe ... we'll get rid of the big guns?" And 50 percent of you went, "EFF YOU, DON'T TAKE MY GUNS."

He continues with a blistering smackdown of the idea that Americans seek guns to keep their families safe:

You have guns because you like guns! That's why you go to gun conventions; that's why you read gun magazines! None of you give a bleep about home security. None of you go to home security conventions. None of you read Padlock Monthly. None of you have a Facebook picture of you behind a secure door.

He doesn't see at all how a gun would have helped him when his home was broken into. "I was naked at the time. I wasn't wearing my holster." How exactly would a gun have protected him? he asks. Was he supposed to be crouched at his windowsill, gun cocked, waiting on high alert for intruders?

By the way. Most people who are breaking into your house just want your [censored] TV! You think that people are coming to murder your family? How many ***** enemies do you have?"


That was designed to be entertainment and taking it seriously is like taking legal advice from Carrot top.

Here's a nice graph showing the Australian homicide rate:

Screen+Shot+2013-08-29+at++Thursday,+August+29,+7.32+PM+1.png


And another showing the rate of homicides with guns and knives:

weapon_trends.png


You'll notice the rate with guns was already on decline before the mass shooting and subsequent ban (1995) and that stabbings were increasing. Both trends continued.

And yet another graph:

figure_04.png


Showing that all forms of robbery increased immediately after the ban.

The reason for all of this is not surprising. Criminals by definition do not follow laws, so banning this and that, further regulating this and that, if they are already law breaking individuals why do you suddenly feel that drumming up another law is going to somehow change that fact? It isn't!

Getting guns out of the hands of those who already have them illegally would actually be effective; dealing with the criminal element and not targeting the law abiding. But that's difficult and so just drumming up new laws make all the hand-wringers sleep easier despite them being no safer than they were before. Restricting freedoms of the law abiding is easy, because these people are already following the laws in place, of course they will follow the new ones, they don't want to be punished! But that's exactly what's happening, they are being punished by the government they expect to protect them, extorted through taxes to pay for this additional "protection" all the while the criminal element is being pursued by law enforcement at the same rate before and after, so the danger level never changes. It's all a sham designed to placate those who lack the ability of critical thought.

I'm all for proper licensing and training for firearms ownership along with safe storage practices, all things we have in Canada. It is a reasonable compromise, ensuring that those who handle and own firearms are properly equipped to do so.
 
In Mexico average citizens are not ALLOWED to own guns...hows that working for them!?
Guns are a SYMPTOM of a bigger problem in many cases. Who is going to stop an evil person with a gun?? A good guy with a gun. The Aurora shooter made sure that the location he went to did not allow conceal carry. Wonder why?? If we start seeing truly crazy people going up to police stations shooting them up that would be interesting. Does one truly think that a person with ill intent would show up to a gun show?? He wouldn't last long let me tell ya that. BUT they will show up at a "gun free" zone won't they. No resistance until the police show up equals many victims. Police are not sprinkled with "magic farie dust" that makes them super human with firearms. My friends on one side of the spectrum remind me often if this
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which... There are very valid cases of improper actions by them too at times. No doubt in that.

The first ten amendments in this nation's Constitution were debated at the time of the formation of this country. Many felt these "rights" were understood rights that DID not need to be specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Others felt that these "rights" had to be put to paper because if they were not specifically enumerated in the Constitution then the people would lose these rights. These rights were laid out to be individual rights that can be construed to be either "negative" or "positive" rights. The view point of these enumerated rights are negative rights comes from the point of view that these rights are what the government cannot do to a person. The positive point of view comes from the point of view that these rights cannot be taken from the people. Both points of view have validity in some aspects.

The first amendment's part of freedom of speech is meant as an individual right. It was not to set up the Washington press corps. Freedom of religion is an individual right as well obviously. The third amendment speaking to not having to quarter troops in one's home without consent is an individual right. The forth amendment speaking to an expectation of privacy in a person's house, papers and effects is an individual right. The fifth amendment speaking to the right of a person nor to be prosecuted without an grand jury indictment is a individual right. The right to not be tried for the same charge twice in double jeopardy is a individual right. The fifth amendment speaking to the right to not have to testify against oneself is an individual right. The sixth amendment guaranteed the right to a speedy trial with legal representation is an individual right. The seventh amendment speaks to common law cases where the controversy is greater than $20 a person retains the individual right to a trial by jury. The eighth amendment speaks to citizens not having to pay excessive bail or be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. These are individual rights enumerated here as well.The rights enumerated in the Constitution shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. This is the ninth amendment that adds another layer of protection to the rights of individual citizens. The tenth amendment basically leaves all other rights not enumerated in this Constitution remanded to states or the people.

The second amendment is an individual right to keep and bear arms. The founders of this nation knew very well that a citizenry that could defend itself was necessary to maintain a free people. Without arms... This nation would have never taken shape. The right to defend oneself is not only for a intruder in one's house, or an evil person but for any intrusion or threat. The right to defend oneself is a right that everyone is endowed with. This right does not disappear when someone leaves their house or property. The police are here for us to protect and serve. They cannot and will not be there for every lawful citizen at all times of the day at every hour. The right to defend oneself is one that must be taken upon by the lawful citizen first and foremost. The only people with 24/7/365 armed protection are our highest level politicians. This right in our Constitution is not just granted to our highest level politicians. It is granted to law abiding citizens.

The interpretation of this amendment that believes this was to establish the military force strains the limits of credulity. Why would the framers of this founding document take the very strange time to address this in context with all of the other clearly enumerated individual rights?? It would the same thought process that the first amendment is about setting up the Washington press corps. If in in its contextual terms and placement it would seem exceptionally odd in the midst of all the other rights that are incontrovertibly constructed as individual rights to place a group formation and right to it. This argument for the interpretation of the second amendment falls short in terms of context, application, and what was in debate at the time of these amendments being sent to the states for ratification.

Are there limits at times to Constitutional rights?? Absolutely. One cannot yell fire atva crowded movie theater. If a person commits a felony in many states that person no longer retains the right to LEGALLY purchase a firearm. This is a fine way to try to protect the general public. There are MANY laws on the books regarding guns. In this terribly sad case in Virginia we have a number of questions to ask... Would a law have prevented this man from buying a gun?? My only proposal would be IF someone was under the care of a psychiatrist for suicidal or homicidal thoughts then could this MD notify the state government and thus this person could not legally purchase a firearm. That may be a possible answer. But what if this person was not seeing a psychiatrist?? What then?? It would not keep this person from IllEGALLY buying a gun. I do think at the minimum we should not LEGALLY sell a very disturbed person a firearm. At least we should make it more difficult. But it would by no means eliminate the risk all together. The other question becomes when does the state step in and forcefully commit someone to an institution?? How easy or difficult should that be?? We have had the pushing out of many patients who were inpatient status that should not have been. Our mental health services in this country has fallen off precipitously. We have also had the rights of the mentally ill pushed for in such a way that it is very difficult to keep them inpatient very long either. I'm not totally sure that has been a good development. Also if a psychiatrist notifies the state that a person is not safe to own a firearm then when will this person ever get that right back?? Would it be appropriate for the state to keep this record on a permanent file?? Would the keeping of this recoreded event be an invasion of expected privacy?? There are many questions that all this brings up.

In summary I firmly believe in the second amendment and the right to defend oneself. I also believe that there are many firearm laws on the books currently. I believe that if there is a practical way to keep from selling a disturbed person a firearm Legally we should very well look into that. This will not prevent ALL instances of an deranged individual from committing acts of evil. And yes this brings up numerous questions and concerns. In which answers are going to be very hard to keep clear and well defined.
 
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Charleston church, virgin geek shooter college student in California, etc...

Nothing can stop an evil person.


Sandy hook never happened. Look beyond the mainstream media. If you watch the interviews of the coroner,police officials and "victims" parents you quickly see something is fishy.
The coroner cracking jokes and quoted as saying " he hopes this doesn't bite the citizens of new town in the a$$.
The parents sure aren't acting like they are mourning. Heck nary a tear was shed.
Then there aren't any child sized body's being carried out of the school. The helicopter view of people just milling around doing laps
A discerning eye sees more than an emotional one does.
 
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