Pilot shortage

[DeepFriar]

ab initio?


An Air India flight was diverted last week because the crew didn’t raise the landing gear. There were apparently lots of clues that something was terribly wrong but the A320 crew pressed on, climbing to 24,000 feet instead of the normal 35,000 to 37,000 feet and reaching only 230 knots as the plane gobbled huge amounts of fuel to beat the drag of the wheels. About 90 minutes into the flight from Kolkata to Mumbai, the fuel state demanded a diversion to Nagpur. They reportedly didn’t realize their error until they went to drop the gear for landing.

The pilots have been suspended pending an investigation by the airline. The aircraft was carrying 99 passengers who got to their destination after refueling in Nagpur.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
ab initio?


An Air India flight was diverted last week because the crew didn’t raise the landing gear. There were apparently lots of clues that something was terribly wrong but the A320 crew pressed on, climbing to 24,000 feet instead of the normal 35,000 to 37,000 feet and reaching only 230 knots as the plane gobbled huge amounts of fuel to beat the drag of the wheels. About 90 minutes into the flight from Kolkata to Mumbai, the fuel state demanded a diversion to Nagpur. They reportedly didn’t realize their error until they went to drop the gear for landing.

The pilots have been suspended pending an investigation by the airline. The aircraft was carrying 99 passengers who got to their destination after refueling in Nagpur.


Yeah...1,500 hours, they just repeated the first 100 hours 15 times over...

Negligent. Stupid. Careless.

The gear handle in the A320 is electric,so it's small, but every airplane I've flown, EVERY one has an after takeoff checklist that includes the gear...

So, were they not doing checklists? Failing to understand the gear extended symbols?

The mind boggles - but as we face a shortage, we will see more errors as pilots are rushed through training and allowed to fly when they should fail and find other occupations...

 

[LoneRanger]

Stories like this make me very thankful that in the US we have highly experienced former military pilots behind the yoke in most of the big iron, who know how to FLY the airplane even in the most demanding weather and how to handle emergencies.

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
ab initio?


An Air India flight was diverted last week because the crew didn’t raise the landing gear. There were apparently lots of clues that something was terribly wrong but the A320 crew pressed on, climbing to 24,000 feet instead of the normal 35,000 to 37,000 feet and reaching only 230 knots as the plane gobbled huge amounts of fuel to beat the drag of the wheels. About 90 minutes into the flight from Kolkata to Mumbai, the fuel state demanded a diversion to Nagpur. They reportedly didn’t realize their error until they went to drop the gear for landing.

The pilots have been suspended pending an investigation by the airline. The aircraft was carrying 99 passengers who got to their destination after refueling in Nagpur.

 

[planeman223]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
ab initio?


An Air India flight was diverted last week because the crew didn’t raise the landing gear. There were apparently lots of clues that something was terribly wrong but the A320 crew pressed on, climbing to 24,000 feet instead of the normal 35,000 to 37,000 feet and reaching only 230 knots as the plane gobbled huge amounts of fuel to beat the drag of the wheels. About 90 minutes into the flight from Kolkata to Mumbai, the fuel state demanded a diversion to Nagpur. They reportedly didn’t realize their error until they went to drop the gear for landing.

The pilots have been suspended pending an investigation by the airline. The aircraft was carrying 99 passengers who got to their destination after refueling in Nagpur.


Yeah...1,500 hours, they just repeated the first 100 hours 15 times over...

Negligent. Stupid. Careless.

The gear handle in the A320 is electric,so it's small, but every airplane I've flown, EVERY one has an after takeoff checklist that includes the gear...

So, were they not doing checklists? Failing to understand the gear extended symbols?

The mind boggles - but as we face a shortage, we will see more errors as pilots are rushed through training and allowed to fly when they should fail and find other occupations...


I've seen on a few occasions crews purposely leave their gear down for cooling (we did in the C-17 often during training). Have you ever done this in the 121 world? I know this is stretching

 

[Astro14]

I've left the gear down for cooling - but that's 60 seconds or so...

Not for nearly an hour!!!

They forgot. Period.

 

[SEMI_287]

Ouch..

 

[Lethal1ty17]

I work in the skydiving industry and we feel it all the way down here. Finding qualified diver drivers (jump pilots) is difficult, especially when we have a King Air. There are maybe 10-15 pilots in the US that are trusted enough to fly King Airs with jumpers aboard. Max weight takeoffs. Lots of parasitic drag outside of the aircraft on jump run when the door is open and people are exiting. Flaps extended and lots of weight on one side of the aircraft. There have been a few accidents with King Airs and jumpers, they are a challenging plane to fly efficiently and safely for skydiving operations, but very fast. We boast the fastest jump aircraft in Texas at the moment.

 

[DeepFriar]

I sincerely don't want to be a wise guy but wouldn't 900 HP Supervans be a better choice? Does faster in this case mean turnarounds or time to climb or both? Lots of Caravan pilots around.

 

[Astro14]

Here is a question that nobody is asking: how well do you think the Air India crew would have done in a genuine emergency?

They couldn't remember to put the gear up after takeoff, their checklist discipline, not to mention situational awareness and feel for the airplane, was that poor. So, lose an engine? Hydraulic failure? Electrical failure at night? Pitot-static failure in IMC?

It's an important question - we are starting to allow air carriers that have incorporated HQ in Europe to fly to the US with outsourced 3rd world pilots, like these. Consumer groups love it (freedoms of choice, lower prices) but the issue for those of us flying is: what have you got in the cockpit?

It's likely bozos like these two...unable to safely fly a short domestic flight on a VFR day because of utter incompetence...but as long as the tickets are cheaper, people will buy on these flag-of-convenience carriers...and brag to their friends how much money they saved by doing so.

Hire the poorly trained and incompetent via legal subterfuge and misrepresentation- that will fix the pilot shortage!!

 

[UncleDave]

Those two shouldn't be able to drive a Greyhound bus.

Where was the checklist?

UD

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: Astro14


Hire the poorly trained and incompetent via legal subterfuge and misrepresentation- that will fix the pilot shortage!!


And we haven't even touched on the pay-to-fly travesty yet where aspiring pilots pay some, even well known, foreign airlines to log time. Nothing like making inexperience or maybe incompetence into a profit center.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Here is a question that nobody is asking: how well do you think the Air India crew would have done in a genuine emergency?

They couldn't remember to put the gear up after takeoff, their checklist discipline, not to mention situational awareness and feel for the airplane, was that poor. So, lose an engine? Hydraulic failure? Electrical failure at night? Pitot-static failure in IMC?

It's an important question - we are starting to allow air carriers that have incorporated HQ in Europe to fly to the US with outsourced 3rd world pilots, like these. Consumer groups love it (freedoms of choice, lower prices) but the issue for those of us flying is: what have you got in the cockpit?

It's likely bozos like these two...unable to safely fly a short domestic flight on a VFR day because of utter incompetence...but as long as the tickets are cheaper, people will buy on these flag-of-convenience carriers...and brag to their friends how much money they saved by doing so.

Hire the poorly trained and incompetent via legal subterfuge and misrepresentation- that will fix the pilot shortage!!


Yep!

If they are going to fly into the US I would make them take courses at Embry-Riddle AU.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
ab initio?


An Air India flight was diverted last week because the crew didn’t raise the landing gear. There were apparently lots of clues that something was terribly wrong but the A320 crew pressed on, climbing to 24,000 feet instead of the normal 35,000 to 37,000 feet and reaching only 230 knots as the plane gobbled huge amounts of fuel to beat the drag of the wheels. About 90 minutes into the flight from Kolkata to Mumbai, the fuel state demanded a diversion to Nagpur. They reportedly didn’t realize their error until they went to drop the gear for landing.

The pilots have been suspended pending an investigation by the airline. The aircraft was carrying 99 passengers who got to their destination after refueling in Nagpur.


Fuel suppliers love this stupidity.

 

[SEMI_287]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Where was the checklist?

UD


In their flight bag...

 

[Astro14]

In the A-320, there is a pocket on either side of the center console that holds the checklists. One for each pilot.

They had checklists at their fingertips...

They either chose not to do them, or really didn't know how to do them...either case is unforgivable...

 

[Mr Nice]

A few years ago an Air Force B-1 bomber got damaged because both pilots accidentally forgot to make sure the landing gear was lowered and made a wheels up landing. Pilots are human and make mistakes even if they have thousands of flight hours.

http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html

 

[maximus]

Originally Posted By: planeman223
3 main things are driving this...

1. The 1500 hour rule. Accumulating 1500 hours of flight time (plus multi-engine, night, cross country flying etc) is EXTREMELY expensive. You're probably looking at $100,000 minimum just to be eligible experience wise.


Only a fool would pay for that much time and as such should be barred from ever flying the general public. I got my CFI and II at 270 hours and instructed to build the rest of my hours. In fact, I got my "MEI" shortly after and managed to do some ME instructing. I got hired with 2500 hours and was PAID(not much) to get 90% of that time. My company paid for my ATP and type and thats how it should be. I'll never pay for flight time again unless its something fun like a seaplane or glider add-on.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I sincerely don't want to be a wise guy but wouldn't 900 HP Supervans be a better choice? Does faster in this case mean turnarounds or time to climb or both? Lots of Caravan pilots around.


900hp $1.2 million Supervan with a 15 minute time to climb vs a 1300hp $350,000 King Air with an 8 minute time to climb.

 

[DeepFriar]

Understood and that's a good answer. My answer was driven by two thoughts. First was safety. Your list of possible foibles of the King Air convinced me that, given a choice as a customer, I would rather fly something else from a safety standpoint. The second was a 7,000 hour TBO on a single engine TPE331 versus maybe 3,500 on two PT6A engines. Those hours roll up quickly. Was your 8 loads per hour on the King Air to 14,000 Ft. with an equal load? Older Caravans with the 600/675 hp -114 engines do approach 4 loads per hour on average. I don't know how many extra loads, if any, could be handled by the 900hp/4 blade prop Supervan but a telephone call to Blackhawk or Texas Turbines could answer that. The availability of pilots was the other factor you mentioned. What model of King Air are we talking about?

 

[DeepFriar]

Apparently released about a week ago, the NTSB report on the Recent Air Canada A320 wrong runway incident says they were under 100 feet when go-around was implemented. I think it also says there were four airliners on the taxiway. So the potential for massive disaster was indeed very real. I hope our worries about quickly trained pilots doesn't lead to more of these- this was just too close.