People want dirty oil, why?

[CrawfishTails]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
I agree with this concept. It is the heat from ring pack area at shut down that mostly cooks the oil and darkens it by oxidation. And that's why I always idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. Nothing dumb about empiric testing like that. This kind of curiosity is healthy, appart from the kitchen area.


I don't see how idling a minute or two will keep oil out of the rings. Its still being thrown/splashed up there.

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted By: zach1900
Why do some people seem obsessed with wanting their oil to darken so much? I have a 2001 Camry 4cyl with high mileage that has never darkened it's oil hardly at all, at worst 6,000 miles maybe a shade darker, I had my valve cover off last weekend and you could eat off of it, slight varnish, that's it...I take "clean" looking oil as a sign of little blow-by, and by the looks of my engine /oil that's the case, what are you thoughts on this?!I've had this car since brand new , Trop-Artic 10w30 almost its entire life @ 5,000 miles oci's.


Post pic of your engine please

 

[yeti]

I also needed to get it out of the house before mom comes home and breaks my arm. Got some smoke in the house, smells like a garage. [/quote]


we can all learn something about oil. the issue is your method.your words above say it all.good luck with your experiment. have a good evening.

 

[jk_636]

What is going on in this thread?

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: gathermewool

People who are trying to clean up a used engine look for a change in color as am indication of a proper cleansing. If the oil doesn't change color then the oil obviously isn't cleaning... Right? Who knows.

But the fact that oil changes color is absolutely no proof that it's doing any cleaning.


I agree that the change in color of oil throughout an interval is not indicative of its effectiveness, nor its durability. I do not believe, however, that color is meaningless.

A worn out gas engine that turns engine oil as black as a diesel won't turn the same oil the same color or give it the same consistency and smell as a DI engine that dilutes the oil with fuel, just as an engine that is well taken care of may go its entire life without doing more than turning each and every brand and quality of oil put into it a darker shade of brown than its virgin color.

With that being said, I wouldn't use a change in the color of my oil in a car that I've been maintaining as anything other small, lowly-weighted data point, and I certainly wouldn't tink that my oil was being cleaned any better if a different brand of oil change to a darker shade of brown faster than the previous fill.

I do believe that many, many others DO believe that color indicates how well an oil is cleaning, because unless my recollection is off, it's posted pretty frequently, just as you and I tell people that the color of oil can't, in fact, be used to indicate the true health of the oil. How do we know? UOA.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: Pontual
I agree with this concept. It is the heat from ring pack area at shut down that mostly cooks the oil and darkens it by oxidation. And that's why I always idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. Nothing dumb about empiric testing like that. This kind of curiosity is healthy, appart from the kitchen area.


I don't see how idling a minute or two will keep oil out of the rings. Its still being thrown/splashed up there.



Cool down period to let parts/oil reduce in temperature. It makes sense. That's what turbo timers do for turbocharged cars.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: Pontual
I agree with this concept. It is the heat from ring pack area at shut down that mostly cooks the oil and darkens it by oxidation. And that's why I always idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. Nothing dumb about empiric testing like that. This kind of curiosity is healthy, appart from the kitchen area.


I don't see how idling a minute or two will keep oil out of the rings. Its still being thrown/splashed up there.


You should read the thread that I put the link to understand why people idle should their engine before shut down ...

 

[TiredTrucker]

Have issues with dirty oil? Don't ever buy a diesel!

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: Pontual
I agree with this concept. It is the heat from ring pack area at shut down that mostly cooks the oil and darkens it by oxidation. And that's why I always idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. Nothing dumb about empiric testing like that. This kind of curiosity is healthy, appart from the kitchen area.


I don't see how idling a minute or two will keep oil out of the rings. Its still being thrown/splashed up there.



Cool down period to let parts/oil reduce in temperature. It makes sense. That's what turbo timers do for turbocharged cars.


Turbo timers in decade+ old turbo cars, maybe. Every modern turbo that I know of is coolant-cooled, and will continue to be cooled after shutdown due to natural circulation of coolant (requires no motive force other than temperature differentials.)

As far as idling to cooldown, I don't subscribe to that logic, only because I've never been in a situation where I immediately stopped and parked the car after running it any appreciable load. Going to work, I engine-brake at a slight downgrade, giving minor blips of the throttle to keep at the speed limit. Coming home, I engine-brake up to the turn into the neighborhood and then drive for a minute+ at neighborhood speeds before parking.

Even when I drive up to the Gunks, I have to wait for at least a minute after boosting uphill to get access to the parking area, and then it's another minute to find a spot and shut'er down. I'll admit that if I felt a little froggy and was driving aggressively before parking, I'd still idle for an additional 10-20 seconds, but not much more than that.

The only time I've idled, was after an auto-cross, but that was more because it was cold as heck and I wanted to keep the temp up between runs.

I've read that some have experienced bubbling or boiling into the turbo reservoir after a hot shutdown, but I've never experienced this, even after intentionally shutting down after getting off the highway and shutting it down immediately, and then opening the hood and listening.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: Pontual
I agree with this concept. It is the heat from ring pack area at shut down that mostly cooks the oil and darkens it by oxidation. And that's why I always idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. Nothing dumb about empiric testing like that. This kind of curiosity is healthy, appart from the kitchen area.


I don't see how idling a minute or two will keep oil out of the rings. Its still being thrown/splashed up there.


Engine braking is even beter than idleing to cool down ring pack area. So you do it.

Cool down period to let parts/oil reduce in temperature. It makes sense. That's what turbo timers do for turbocharged cars.


Turbo timers in decade+ old turbo cars, maybe. Every modern turbo that I know of is coolant-cooled, and will continue to be cooled after shutdown due to natural circulation of coolant (requires no motive force other than temperature differentials.)

As far as idling to cooldown, I don't subscribe to that logic, only because I've never been in a situation where I immediately stopped and parked the car after running it any appreciable load. Going to work, I engine-brake at a slight downgrade, giving minor blips of the throttle to keep at the speed limit. Coming home, I engine-brake up to the turn into the neighborhood and then drive for a minute+ at neighborhood speeds before parking.

Even when I drive up to the Gunks, I have to wait for at least a minute after boosting uphill to get access to the parking area, and then it's another minute to find a spot and shut'er down. I'll admit that if I felt a little froggy and was driving aggressively before parking, I'd still idle for an additional 10-20 seconds, but not much more than that.

The only time I've idled, was after an auto-cross, but that was more because it was cold as heck and I wanted to keep the temp up between runs.

I've read that some have experienced bubbling or boiling into the turbo reservoir after a hot shutdown, but I've never experienced this, even after intentionally shutting down after getting off the highway and shutting it down immediately, and then opening the hood and listening.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Anyone worried about turbo cool down, there is a great little device that a lot of commercial trucks have... a pyrometer. Especially with the sensor mounted near the outlet of the turbo. Easy to tell if the turbo is cooled down.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Anyone worried about turbo cool down, there is a great little device that a lot of commercial trucks have... a pyrometer. Especially with the sensor mounted near the outlet of the turbo. Easy to tell if the turbo is cooled down.


Not in my previous and current turbo Subie, no, because they're water-cooled, and will continue to circulate coolant even after shutdown.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
It didn't "combust." A little smoke, it turned black. I have spent hundreds of dollars on UOA and particle counts, read countless opinions on "soot" which mean nothing to a gasoline engine. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/712/diesel-engine-oil-particle

Now I KNOW what it takes to turn new motor oil black. No speculation. Heat alone. Which is absolutely normal in an internal combustion engine. I PASSED the flash point and it didn't actually burn, just smoked. https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf There was a source of heat, but NOT a source of ignition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point Flash point is NOT to be confused with autoignition temperature.

Besides, the QUANTITY that I did was rather small. GASOLINE does not burn only because of heat. You need an IGNITION source. I didn't say I threw a match in it. A liquid past its flash point does NOT "spontaneously ignite;" without a source of ignition, it is CAPABLE of ignition. Yes, dangerous. BTW, I used to be a welder for a living; and I don't mean in the barn. Union Boilermaker, 6G certified with Inconel, F43.

I've never washed an engine in the bathtub, but when I was single, I kept my Harley in the living room. Didn't want it outside in the winter. Mom came home and got ****

Thanks for your interest. And maybe some humorous folks will watch for my next post. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions.


Sober up here, you must admit it was dump experiment to prove what if you really did it?

Years ago there was a television advertisement for Mobil 1 oil being fried oil in a saucepan to demonstrate its resistance to oil thickening.

I am still in two minds whether we have a potential troll post here or just its just a plan to demonstrate stup..ty. In either event mission accomplished.

My post definitely written to discourage any new members to contemplating this as it is not BITOG practice to test nonsense and report back nonsense. There are labs set up for this sort of stuff.

If the OP is silly enough to post this then I guess the OP is prepared to receive the treatment it deserves IMO.

If some feel this is too hard on the OP then it should be posted or moved into the Humor Forum or Off Topic forum where it cannot be taken seriously.

I will be watching for your next troll post if it is similar nonsense to what is posted here I HOPE the MODS delete it before it can be read.

 

[Pontual]

Basically you're saying this Public Forum(s) is ok to be under censorship and wording aprovals for so little? What's so wrong about the OP thread? Because he used his kitchen do boil some oil? What anybody has to do with it? He was trying to demonstrate what's darkens the oil. And me too, as in the engine perspective.
Rotulating a person as a troll and senseless would be, IMO, object of deletion and Ban.

That's Not nice! And I really hope that People who likes freedom, won't coadunate with your unfortunate opinion, Virgin.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Quote:


Turbo timers in decade+ old turbo cars, maybe. Every modern turbo that I know of is coolant-cooled, and will continue to be cooled after shutdown due to natural circulation of coolant (requires no motive force other than temperature differentials.)


Which will not do nearly as much for the engine's ring pack as having the engine's entire cooling system active and circulating by the pumps.

Coolant cooled turbos have been around for a long time, and they coke oil as well as anything.

Quote:
As far as idling to cooldown, I don't subscribe to that logic, only because I've never been in a situation where I immediately stopped and parked the car after running it any appreciable load. Going to work, I engine-brake at a slight downgrade, giving minor blips of the throttle to keep at the speed limit. Coming home, I engine-brake up to the turn into the neighborhood and then drive for a minute+ at neighborhood speeds before parking.

Even when I drive up to the Gunks, I have to wait for at least a minute after boosting uphill to get access to the parking area, and then it's another minute to find a spot and shut'er down. I'll admit that if I felt a little froggy and was driving aggressively before parking, I'd still idle for an additional 10-20 seconds, but not much more than that.

The only time I've idled, was after an auto-cross, but that was more because it was cold as heck and I wanted to keep the temp up between runs.

I've read that some have experienced bubbling or boiling into the turbo reservoir after a hot shutdown, but I've never experienced this, even after intentionally shutting down after getting off the highway and shutting it down immediately, and then opening the hood and listening.


You don't subscribe to that logic, just because of the way that you personally use your vehicle? Ok then. Well it must all be complete [censored], because if you never encounter any conditions where you're parking a heat soaked vehicle,,then nobody is, anywhere.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: abycat
Originally Posted By: zach1900
That's what I suspected , more so than actual dirt, as my engine has always seem to run pretty cool even during the summer.


all engines should have very high piston crown temps or they aren't combusting fuel properly. piston skirts should also be very hot. Being overly cool accelerates wear as well. I'm pretty sure the hotter the engine is the more efficient it is.


However isn't oils optimal temp 150f.
Once this temp is exceeded the oil breaks down faster and every 10f increase in oil temps chop a significant percentage of life from the oil.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
It didn't "combust." A little smoke, it turned black. I have spent hundreds of dollars on UOA and particle counts, read countless opinions on "soot" which mean nothing to a gasoline engine. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/712/diesel-engine-oil-particle

Now I KNOW what it takes to turn new motor oil black. No speculation. Heat alone. Which is absolutely normal in an internal combustion engine. I PASSED the flash point and it didn't actually burn, just smoked. https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf There was a source of heat, but NOT a source of ignition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point Flash point is NOT to be confused with autoignition temperature.

Besides, the QUANTITY that I did was rather small. GASOLINE does not burn only because of heat. You need an IGNITION source. I didn't say I threw a match in it. A liquid past its flash point does NOT "spontaneously ignite;" without a source of ignition, it is CAPABLE of ignition. Yes, dangerous. BTW, I used to be a welder for a living; and I don't mean in the barn. Union Boilermaker, 6G certified with Inconel, F43.

I've never washed an engine in the bathtub, but when I was single, I kept my Harley in the living room. Didn't want it outside in the winter. Mom came home and got ****

Thanks for your interest. And maybe some humorous folks will watch for my next post. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions.


Sober up here, you must admit it was dump experiment to prove what if you really did it?

Years ago there was a television advertisement for Mobil 1 oil being fried oil in a saucepan to demonstrate its resistance to oil thickening.

I am still in two minds whether we have a potential troll post here or just its just a plan to demonstrate stup..ty. In either event mission accomplished.

My post definitely written to discourage any new members to contemplating this as it is not BITOG practice to test nonsense and report back nonsense. There are labs set up for this sort of stuff.

If the OP is silly enough to post this then I guess the OP is prepared to receive the treatment it deserves IMO.

If some feel this is too hard on the OP then it should be posted or moved into the Humor Forum or Off Topic forum where it cannot be taken seriously.

I will be watching for your next troll post if it is similar nonsense to what is posted here I HOPE the MODS delete it before it can be read.



He lives at home with his mom,as he cites his vast knowledge in reading countless used oil analysis'.
And does this in his mothers kitchen and home.
Really respectful.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: Pontual
I agree with this concept. It is the heat from ring pack area at shut down that mostly cooks the oil and darkens it by oxidation. And that's why I always idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. Nothing dumb about empiric testing like that. This kind of curiosity is healthy, appart from the kitchen area.


I don't see how idling a minute or two will keep oil out of the rings. Its still being thrown/splashed up there.


Rings will still be full of oil, and the crowns will still be a couple hundred degrees.

Residence time is a minute at 1500RPM, which is all the time in the world for the oil to stabilise at ring/land temperature...A minute under load is forever according to the oil in a ring land.
Discussed here.

Have discussed this theory of stopped oil/engine with the proponent before, and I don't think the premise stacks up. The piston rings, and liners will rapidly reach equlibrium, and cool quickly.

(My personal view is that oxidation/degradation is the oil mist flung off the big ends into a vapour of reactive blowby gasses).

As to the stove test.

Only thing wrong was doing it in the kitchen and getting caught. My wife has limits, and oil on the stove is off those limits. Camp stove in my yard is free game....yes, oil darkens very quickly near smoke point.

 

[SHOZ]

My Hyundai Genesis Coupe turbo the oil gets black as soon as you start he engine. There's too much left in thee that won't drain out.

Who remembers Arco Graphite oil? Nastiest stuff I ever used.

 

[friendly_jacek]

LOL, this is so classical. if one posts any kind of stupid speculation on BITOG, it's all fine.

Godforbid one does some experimentation and heats some oil (like the famous Mobil 1 commercial in the frying pan), then it's all sacrilege and one should be banned or ostracized.

I love it, groupthink at its best.

BTW, plenty of "oil cleaning" in this video: