Nissan Versa "Needs H-Rated Tires"?

[George Bynum]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
If you want to know if a particular tire has a cap ply - ask the manufacturer!! It's required by law on the sidewall of the tire so it's no secret.
OK ... so to satisfy my curiosity, I went to the car and looked. Sidewall markings are:

TREAD PLIES, 2 Polyester, 1 Polyamide, 2 steel
SIDEWALL PLIES, 2 Polyester.

SO ... if listed in order (good engineers would?), nothing outside the steel so no cap? Capri, how about a link to a website with some more descriptions on tire construction ... all the manufacturers seem to use buzzwords rather than useful diagrams, and of course details are proprietary. This particular example happens to be an H rated Michelin Primacy MXV4. The picture on their website makes me think it MIGHT be polyester/steel/polyester/steel/polyamide making the polyamide (nylon?) a cap ply? I see that French company has a term "crown ply" ... same thing? But which are which ... not explained.

 

[stephen9666]

CapriRacer,

It would probably be useful info for all of us if you could point out what we should look for on a tire to see if it has a cap ply.

I just looked at my H727 tires in 215/60-16 and did a little googling. For tread it says: 2 steel + 2 polyester + 1 nylon.

From my research, the "1 nylon" refers to a cap ply, or what some websites call a "nylon overlay."

Does that sound correct? Will a cap ply always be nylon (polyamide)?

Again, thanks for your helpful, informative posts.

 

[CapriRacer]

Ok, when the tread plies are delineated it will say 2 steel plies , and one or 2 sidewall plies - usually of polyester, and if it says polyamid or nylon, then that's the cap ply. Polyamide is a generic way of saying nylon or aramid - and almost without exception this is nylon.

Also, "nylon overlay" is another way of saying "nylon cap ply".

 

[DBMaster]

Aramid is also another way to say Kevlar IIRC.

 

[PandaBear]

Great info, thanks guys.

What I notice when shopping for tire is that usually the speed rating is determined by the profile of the tire. Taller than 60 you usually see S and T, then you start seeing H at 60, V at 55, Z at 50, W at 45.

Most of the time I see trade off in UTQG vs speed rating or rolling resistance of the same size, but not price. It is unlikely that the buyer has to decide between a W and a S, but rather a T and a H, etc.

 

[DBMaster]

The tires on my Mazda are H-rated and are 55's. Seems like H is the new T, which was the new S a few years back. Good luck finding a tire dealer who will sell you a lower speed rating that what came on the car from the factory. Discount, NTB, Sam's, and Costco won't do it. Maybe if you find a locally owned place...

 

[sparky123]

Thank-you CapriRacer for the info. Now I know what to look for! The OEM Conti Pro Contact's do have a "cap" ply despite their low weight. The T-rated CS4's and Altimax RT's do as well. Good to know! Could you please give your thoughts on a tire's sidewall having 0ne or two plies? (The 2 ply ply sidewall Cooper CS4's (195/60/15) handle very well despite their T-rating.) Useful info from all posters.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: sparky123
Thank-you CapriRacer for the info. Now I know what to look for! The OEM Conti Pro Contact's do have a "cap" ply despite their low weight. The T-rated CS4's and Altimax RT's do as well. Good to know! Could you please give your thoughts on a tire's sidewall having 0ne or two plies? (The 2 ply ply sidewall Cooper CS4's (195/60/15) handle very well despite their T-rating.) Useful info from all posters.


One vs 2 sidewall plies?

Let me explain it this way: Polyester comes in a variety configurations. I can get 1000/2 or 1000/3 or 1500/2. I can also get polyester in a variety of end counts(cords per inch).

1000/3 and 1500/2 are literally the same strength.

So the question becomes: When designing tires, do I use a LOT of small cord or a smaller amount of heavy cord.

Lots of small cord means more cost, but indentations and bulges are less likely. 2 plies makes the tire thicker, which is the wrong direction for durability (meaning fatigue resistance, not wear), but makes the tire more resistant to cut and impact damage. It also hurts ride, but improves handling.

If I am designing a whole line of tires, there is a size where I can no longer use a single ply - I have to use 2. So you will find small tires with a single ply and larger tires in the same line with 2 plies.

Frankly, there is only a small group of tire sizes where there are both available - so I don't think it is worth the trouble to worry about it - partciularly considering a particular line of tires will be done one and only one way.

 

[rslifkin]

Sidewall height doesn't always determine speed rating. My 255/65R16s are H rated and still have tall sidewalls (although the 245/70R16 and 255/70R16 versions of this tire are S rated).

 

[sxg6]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

I don't have a problem with Winter tires being Q speed rated, because of the conditions.

HOWEVER, anyone who spends a some time on the interstates in winter ought to invest in H or higher winter tires.


Interesting. I know that this is an older thread, but I wonder if this partially explains why I feel so nervous on the highway with my continental extremewintercontact snow tires.

They've gotten better as the tread has worn down a bit, but they still feel weird on the highway. Especially if I'm traveling in the left or center lane on a high volume highway, where there are sometimes two low spots in the lane where the pavement has sunk down from the weight of the vehicles. The tires don't seem to handle changes in pavement height anywhere near the way my all seasons or performance snow tires do, I thought it was the soft sidewalls, but it sounds like it could be the possible lack of a cap ply too? Would that cause the tire transition poorly between different pavement heights? It's hard to explain what I mean, but sort of like if you were to change lanes from a milled part of the road, to a freshly paved part of the road that may be 1-2" higher.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: sxg6
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

I don't have a problem with Winter tires being Q speed rated, because of the conditions.

HOWEVER, anyone who spends a some time on the interstates in winter ought to invest in H or higher winter tires.


Interesting. I know that this is an older thread, but I wonder if this partially explains why I feel so nervous on the highway with my continental extremewintercontact snow tires.

They've gotten better as the tread has worn down a bit, but they still feel weird on the highway. Especially if I'm traveling in the left or center lane on a high volume highway, where there are sometimes two low spots in the lane where the pavement has sunk down from the weight of the vehicles. The tires don't seem to handle changes in pavement height anywhere near the way my all seasons or performance snow tires do, I thought it was the soft sidewalls, but it sounds like it could be the possible lack of a cap ply too? Would that cause the tire transition poorly between different pavement heights? It's hard to explain what I mean, but sort of like if you were to change lanes from a milled part of the road, to a freshly paved part of the road that may be 1-2" higher.


Small tread blocks, deep tread depth and heavy siping lead to flex and movement at the contact point. New winter tires are frequently described as SQUIRMY for lack of a better description, because the tread is inherently less stable. At lower speeds, on snow and ice, that, along with the right compound, is what gets you grip... but at higher speeds on dry pavement, the tire can feel disconnected or loose. If you read tire reviews, you will always find someone who claims brand xyz winter tire is DANGEROUS... because the tire is not nearly as stable as the performance tire that was used in the summer, especially when the winter tire is driven the same as the summer tire. Performance winter tires have more stability... and better handling, but with less absolute snow and ice grip than a studless pure winter tire. Everything is a trade off...

 

[wokeupdead]

I know OP solved his dilemma. Some additional info, the tire ratings for the vehicle should be on the tire placard, usually by the drivers door.

That being said, you could run lower speed rating. Generally without any issues. Not recommended, and some places will have a waiver for you. Some of the problem is actually the Load Index, the number before the letter of the speed rating. Dropping the speed rating and or the Load Index can change the handling adversely when lowered from original specifications. Many people do not notice.

Going up not so much of a problem.

 

[sxg6]

Yeah, I figured the deep, heavily siped tread played a part in the squirmy behavior on the highway, which has calmed down now that the continentals are down to around 7/32". I guess I wasn't sure what the main cause of this squirmy disconnected feeling was. To me, it seems like there may not be a main cause, rather multiple smaller causes together. Softer sidewalls, deep heavily siped tread blocks, and the possible lack of a cap ply. Ultimately I think that you are right though Geeman789, I think the deep siped tread may be the biggest contributor.

*It's too late for me to edit my last reply, but I meant to say the right and center lanes, not the left lane.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: sxg6
Yeah, I figured the deep, heavily siped tread played a part in the squirmy behavior on the highway, which has calmed down now that the continentals are down to around 7/32". I guess I wasn't sure what the main cause of this squirmy disconnected feeling was. To me, it seems like there may not be a main cause, rather multiple smaller causes together. Softer sidewalls, deep heavily siped tread blocks, and the possible lack of a cap ply. Ultimately I think that you are right though Geeman789, I think the deep siped tread may be the biggest contributor.

*It's too late for me to edit my last reply, but I meant to say the right and center lanes, not the left lane.


I have a set of TOYO GSI-5 studless true winter tires, they work fantastic in ice and snow, but feel barely ok on dry pavement, worse if it's warm out...

The tread blocks , all fairly small and heavily siped, are borderline SCARY soft at room temps... you can move them around with one finger!

Contrast that with my set of Michelin PILOT SUPERSPORTS... the tread blocks are not really blocks, but more like long slabs of continuous rubber. And the tread depth is shallower, and the rubber is much much firmer than the winters...and the sidewalls are lower profile and wayyyyyy stiffer... this tire is utterly STABLE at very high speeds, a fantastic tire in the summer...

I have used Toyo's, Bridgestone Blizzaks, Yokohama's IG's , and a few sets of Nokian HAKKAPALITA's, and all worked well in snow, but so so on dry roads at high speeds. You adjust, and quickly realize you can't do a California lane change without some serious wobble , or worse. So you don't, you drive smoother and , gasp, slower...!

And, don't even THINK ABOUT driving the MICHELIN PSS in the winter. EVER. If you tried, you would struggle to even move on snow, and if you got moving , good luck stopping.

Different tires for different purposes... !

 

[KitaCam]

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