But A Clean Motor Is A Happy Motor!!!
New information on PZ Ultra composition
- Thread starter Tom NJ
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Originally Posted By: webfors
Agreed, I want better wear protection, not more 'cleaning' ability. We've already seen the valve covers opened on engines with 100k+ miles run exclusively on bulk dino that look pretty 'clean'. How much cleaner do things need to be?
I can't stop laughing after reading your post. Of course you are a thousand percent right.
My God they're thinking with their dipstick!
Agreed, I want better wear protection, not more 'cleaning' ability. We've already seen the valve covers opened on engines with 100k+ miles run exclusively on bulk dino that look pretty 'clean'. How much cleaner do things need to be?
I can't stop laughing after reading your post. Of course you are a thousand percent right.
My God they're thinking with their dipstick!
I'd like to know why it is priced at extended oil drain prices and yet is not extended drain oil.
What makes this better than PP, which already keeps engines super clean?
And why would people buy this oil when they can choose M1 EP or EDGE for the same price?
What makes this better than PP, which already keeps engines super clean?
And why would people buy this oil when they can choose M1 EP or EDGE for the same price?
Originally Posted By: webfors
Agreed, I want better wear protection, not more 'cleaning' ability. We've already seen the valve covers opened on engines with 100k+ miles run exclusively on bulk dino that look pretty 'clean'. How much cleaner do things need to be? It's not a beauty contest!!
PP is 'clean' enough. Now give me some of that "X times less wear" with a series of independant tests to prove it!
On a long enough time line, marketing departments will try to convince people that high metal counts in UOA is a good thing and is proof that their oil is keeping the engine clean b/c otherwise it would've been high in soot and other contaminants.
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Shell only said, "it's a new and unique, proprietary technology exclusive to Shell and unlike what we have seen before."
I'm sure testing has been done, but do we have any idea what this new technology does to rings and seals. I mean I'd just like to be sure that it isn't slowly affecting some parts negatively in an attempt to keep everything "factory clean"
Agreed, I want better wear protection, not more 'cleaning' ability. We've already seen the valve covers opened on engines with 100k+ miles run exclusively on bulk dino that look pretty 'clean'. How much cleaner do things need to be? It's not a beauty contest!!
PP is 'clean' enough. Now give me some of that "X times less wear" with a series of independant tests to prove it!
On a long enough time line, marketing departments will try to convince people that high metal counts in UOA is a good thing and is proof that their oil is keeping the engine clean b/c otherwise it would've been high in soot and other contaminants.
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Shell only said, "it's a new and unique, proprietary technology exclusive to Shell and unlike what we have seen before."
I'm sure testing has been done, but do we have any idea what this new technology does to rings and seals. I mean I'd just like to be sure that it isn't slowly affecting some parts negatively in an attempt to keep everything "factory clean"
Originally Posted By: HARTZSKY
Kinda of disappointing really. So it keeps the engine clean, well, so does most other oils. If its so special, im not seeing anything that strikes me.
+1
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
Kinda of disappointing really. So it keeps the engine clean, well, so does most other oils. If its so special, im not seeing anything that strikes me.
+1
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: HARTZSKY
Kinda of disappointing really. So it keeps the engine clean, well, so does most other oils. If its so special, im not seeing anything that strikes me.
+1
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
So should we go look at VOAs of the Toyota 0W20?... lol
Originally Posted By: HARTZSKY
Kinda of disappointing really. So it keeps the engine clean, well, so does most other oils. If its so special, im not seeing anything that strikes me.
+1
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
So should we go look at VOAs of the Toyota 0W20?... lol
If you've got something constructive to say I'm listening.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
You have repeated this in many post and what I want to know is how do they come up with this high VI? Do you know? I kind of doubt it as most of the tribologist on this site don't know. I sure don't, but would be willing to bet both the Toyota and Honda 0W oils got there by adding a lot of VII to it and a bunch of pour point additives.
And as for as what Shell has in sight, you don't have a clue about that either.
So to quote a regular on here:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you've got something constructive to say I'm listening.
+1
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
You have repeated this in many post and what I want to know is how do they come up with this high VI? Do you know? I kind of doubt it as most of the tribologist on this site don't know. I sure don't, but would be willing to bet both the Toyota and Honda 0W oils got there by adding a lot of VII to it and a bunch of pour point additives.
And as for as what Shell has in sight, you don't have a clue about that either.
So to quote a regular on here:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you've got something constructive to say I'm listening.
+1
Originally Posted By: Johnny
I want to know is how do they come up with this high VI? I sure don't, but would be willing to bet both the Toyota and Honda 0W oils got there by adding a lot of VII to it and a bunch of pour point additives.
To state the obvious we need to see what happens to these 0W20s in the real world. Hopefully over the next 6 months we will see more and more UOA of these oils (hurry up rcy
). Seeing the shear #s will help decide about the quality and effectiveness of their high VIs .
I want to know is how do they come up with this high VI? I sure don't, but would be willing to bet both the Toyota and Honda 0W oils got there by adding a lot of VII to it and a bunch of pour point additives.
To state the obvious we need to see what happens to these 0W20s in the real world. Hopefully over the next 6 months we will see more and more UOA of these oils (hurry up rcy
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Originally Posted By: webfors
Agreed, I want better wear protection, not more 'cleaning' ability. We've already seen the valve covers opened on engines with 100k+ miles run exclusively on bulk dino that look pretty 'clean'. How much cleaner do things need to be? It's not a beauty contest!!
True, but if you invent a new and better detergent, naturally you are going to promote cleanliness. It's just marketing - highlighting what makes you different or better. Also they may be trying to put to bed the old sludge rumors.
BTW, they do claim "No leading full synthetic provides better wear protection", which means they scored http://www.orangelineoil.com/images/medialibrary/PZ_Ultra_Product_Information.pdf
Here is their Ultra data sheet:
http://www.orangelineoil.com/images/medi..._Data_Sheet.pdf
Tom NJ
Agreed, I want better wear protection, not more 'cleaning' ability. We've already seen the valve covers opened on engines with 100k+ miles run exclusively on bulk dino that look pretty 'clean'. How much cleaner do things need to be? It's not a beauty contest!!
True, but if you invent a new and better detergent, naturally you are going to promote cleanliness. It's just marketing - highlighting what makes you different or better. Also they may be trying to put to bed the old sludge rumors.
BTW, they do claim "No leading full synthetic provides better wear protection", which means they scored http://www.orangelineoil.com/images/medialibrary/PZ_Ultra_Product_Information.pdf
Here is their Ultra data sheet:
http://www.orangelineoil.com/images/medi..._Data_Sheet.pdf
Tom NJ
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That is one of the first things I noticed. They improved the deposit control and improved the detergent system while retaining the very good Seq IVA performance. Throw in API SN and a Tbn of 13, and I think it's an impressive oil. At least on paper. Specifications met are a good indication of quality. This oil has quality written all over it.
The only negative thing about this oil that might prevent it from being a top seller is the fact that they don't suggest longer drain intervals. I would have thought they would go after the M1 EP/Edge oils.
Time will tell. Very reasonably priced though.
The only negative thing about this oil that might prevent it from being a top seller is the fact that they don't suggest longer drain intervals. I would have thought they would go after the M1 EP/Edge oils.
Time will tell. Very reasonably priced though.
Originally Posted By: buster
The only negative thing about this oil that might prevent it from being a top seller is the fact that they don't suggest longer drain intervals. I would have thought they would go after the M1 EP/Edge oils.
They probably felt the 500,000 mile/15 year warranty was more powerful and meaningful to the average consumer than extended drains, and it would be risky to have both. Very few people extend drains significantly, even those using M1 and Edge. Of course few people keep cars for 500,000 miles either, so such claims are marketing nonsense. Next we'll see "million mile waranties", why not, they would probably have no payouts beyond 200,000 miles anyhow, if any!
Tom NJ
The only negative thing about this oil that might prevent it from being a top seller is the fact that they don't suggest longer drain intervals. I would have thought they would go after the M1 EP/Edge oils.
They probably felt the 500,000 mile/15 year warranty was more powerful and meaningful to the average consumer than extended drains, and it would be risky to have both. Very few people extend drains significantly, even those using M1 and Edge. Of course few people keep cars for 500,000 miles either, so such claims are marketing nonsense. Next we'll see "million mile waranties", why not, they would probably have no payouts beyond 200,000 miles anyhow, if any!
Tom NJ
I'm not bashing the product, just the focus on 'cleaning', since it's not really one of the priorities *I* would like to see.
Tom, thanks for the links. I hadn't seen them yet. Now that I've read them they do indeed address my priorities and it looks like an excellent oil, as Buster pointed out.
I don't care what base oil it's made of. In fact, if I had my choice I *would* want primarily group III. I'm not in the faux-syn-groupIII-basher-club. Group III base oils have many benefits that club likes to ignore.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this oil in Canada at a **REASONABLE** price. History says it'll be overpriced, in which case I'll make a Sunday drive over to upstate NY and pick some up
Tom, thanks for the links. I hadn't seen them yet. Now that I've read them they do indeed address my priorities and it looks like an excellent oil, as Buster pointed out.
I don't care what base oil it's made of. In fact, if I had my choice I *would* want primarily group III. I'm not in the faux-syn-groupIII-basher-club. Group III base oils have many benefits that club likes to ignore.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this oil in Canada at a **REASONABLE** price. History says it'll be overpriced, in which case I'll make a Sunday drive over to upstate NY and pick some up
webfors said:
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
You have repeated this in many post and what I want to know is how do they come up with this high VI? Do you know? I kind of doubt it as most of the tribologist on this site don't know. I sure don't, but would be willing to bet both the Toyota and Honda 0W oils got there by adding a lot of VII to it and a bunch of pour point additives.
And as for as what Shell has in sight, you don't have a clue about that either.
So to quote a regular on here:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you've got something constructive to say I'm listening.
+1
What I find particularly amusing about the PU marketing or advertising is pushing that it's cleaner than their already clean PP. My first reaction to that is "that's it, that's the best that you can come up with for the launch of a new brand?"
It reminds me of the old Tide detergent advertising slogan "whiter than white".
Furthermore only offering 3 domestic grades, two of which are virtually (technically) obsolete reeks of mediocrity.
Yes you're correct I don't know what Shell is working on but I have no doubt it will include some 0W-XX oils, I just think they missed a timing opportunity not to have included them with the PU launch. With Honda, Acura and Toyota, Lexus planning on going to the 0W-20 grade across the board it would be foolish if Shell didn't have something to offer.
As an aside I know RP is planning on coming out soon with their version of an SM 0W-20 (hybrid targeted) oil.
Oh, and BTW, the high VI's of the Toyota and Honda oils is not what impresses me most, it is their very low 40C vis spec's which translates into their having the lowest start-up viscosities of any SM oils you can buy followed by their very robust ad' pac's which rival the best of the best.
I was also impressed by Toyota's recent announcement
extending the OCI from 5,000 to 10,000 miles.
I'm also impressed that there ISN'T a big marketing push with their new 0W-20 oils, it's 100% engineering based with no flashy advertising or packaging; heck Honda doesn't even label the product as being synthetic, nor does Toyota on their Cdn packaged oil. But then why would they, they're in the business of selling cars and trucks not oil.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
With the leading German and Japanese car manufacturer's specifying high VI 0W-XX oils what has Pennzoil offered in it's new marketing brand.....nothing. Not a 0W-XX oil in sight.
You have repeated this in many post and what I want to know is how do they come up with this high VI? Do you know? I kind of doubt it as most of the tribologist on this site don't know. I sure don't, but would be willing to bet both the Toyota and Honda 0W oils got there by adding a lot of VII to it and a bunch of pour point additives.
And as for as what Shell has in sight, you don't have a clue about that either.
So to quote a regular on here:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you've got something constructive to say I'm listening.
+1
What I find particularly amusing about the PU marketing or advertising is pushing that it's cleaner than their already clean PP. My first reaction to that is "that's it, that's the best that you can come up with for the launch of a new brand?"
It reminds me of the old Tide detergent advertising slogan "whiter than white".
Furthermore only offering 3 domestic grades, two of which are virtually (technically) obsolete reeks of mediocrity.
Yes you're correct I don't know what Shell is working on but I have no doubt it will include some 0W-XX oils, I just think they missed a timing opportunity not to have included them with the PU launch. With Honda, Acura and Toyota, Lexus planning on going to the 0W-20 grade across the board it would be foolish if Shell didn't have something to offer.
As an aside I know RP is planning on coming out soon with their version of an SM 0W-20 (hybrid targeted) oil.
Oh, and BTW, the high VI's of the Toyota and Honda oils is not what impresses me most, it is their very low 40C vis spec's which translates into their having the lowest start-up viscosities of any SM oils you can buy followed by their very robust ad' pac's which rival the best of the best.
I was also impressed by Toyota's recent announcement
extending the OCI from 5,000 to 10,000 miles.
I'm also impressed that there ISN'T a big marketing push with their new 0W-20 oils, it's 100% engineering based with no flashy advertising or packaging; heck Honda doesn't even label the product as being synthetic, nor does Toyota on their Cdn packaged oil. But then why would they, they're in the business of selling cars and trucks not oil.
If you've got a 'yota in Canada, you shouldn't be picking anything up but the synthetic 0w-20 quarts at the dealership... Assuming they're still going for $5.99 CAD.
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