Nano-based lubricant from Millers Oils

[wlyszkow]

Originally Posted By: 67King
Wojtek - I know from e-mails forwarded, and sent directly to me from [email protected] that you are a dealer of Amsoil and other lubricants, and I know that my counterpart in Poland has had a history in dealing with you.

I am not a dealer of any lubricants anywhere.
I agree I know Amsoil distributor in Poland and I am in touch with Marcin when needed as well who is MillersOils distributor in Poland. They are both very nice guys.

I was using several MillersOils products and many Amsoil ones and now you can call me Amsoil fan if you wish - I agree. I am also fan of nanotechnology (including nano WS2) and that is why I am asking so many detailed questions about Nanodrive which I am unable to get answered in Poland sometimes - forgive me please...

Nevertheless, I do not know what was wrong with my questions and oil reports (really MillersOils ones 0W-30 CFS NT used and 10W-50 CFS NT virgin).. If I am wrong regarding Nanodrive technology than please correct me.. and promote them here by providing manufacturer information. In fact I red it at public document from your website that Millers was using nano WS2 "Nanotechnology_in_gear_oils.pdf" which is mentioned here http://performanceracingoils.com/nanotechnology-ezp-6.html but unavailable after I asked Marcin in Poland about more details...
http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/Nanotechnology_in_gear_oils.pdf
Examples if you do not remember this document:
http://imageshack.us/a/img22/7641/millersws21.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/8514/millersws2.jpg
Charts at your website look the same but without WS2 mentioned below today. Why? Is it a shame to use nano WS2?

p.s. I am not aware of any KAPS or Samsonas recommendations of Amsoil in the past or before MillersOils recommendation as you are suggesting - very interesting, please provide if you have such.

 

[67King]

When you contacted me in August asking detailed info, I sent the info to Millers, as I was suspicious. The reply I got was:

"Our guy in Poland has been contacted by the same person who he knows privately to be the distributor of Amsoil and other lubricants, fuel treatments etc in Poland."

I'm leaving out a lot of detail, but given what I've seen - including an e-mail you sent Marcin taunting him about what you got from me, I believe Millers and Marcin. If you are not a distributor of a competitor's products, your motives are at best confusing.

The referenced file is irrelavant to this conversation. The file is obsolete, having been written about the early gear oil work, as you no doubt know by the title related to gear oil. The first NT gear oils came out nearly 5 years ago, which should give you an indication as to the age of the document that I removed from my website. To my knowledge, WS2 powder is comprised of particles that are an order of magnitude larger than the NT additive Millers uses, and powder is not to my knowledge a fullerence. Calling WS2 powder "nanotechnology" would be analogous to calling graphite powder or soot C60 fullerenes. It just isn't so.

The oil you list as CFS 10W50 NT contains only a trace amount (3ppm) of Mo. Millers CFS 10W50 NT contains approximately 750ppm. That is 2.5 orders of magnitude differnt, and is consistent with the 0W30 you list as Millers. The oil you list as CFS 10W50 NT contains 547 ppm B. Millers CFS 10W50 NT contains approximately 65ppm B, which is an order of magnitude different, and also again consistent with what you show for CFS 0W30 NT. I expect a notable degree of variation in sample testing, but not that level. Perhaps Blackstone mixed up some samples, I don't know. Even if I were making numbers up out of thin air, the data you put forth contradicts itself.

I'm at a loss for what you could be doing to the 0W30 to make it so acidic. Some guys at Millers run the stuff in their daily drivers, and it lasts over 20,000 miles (32,250km). Like I showed in our case study publication, over a similar distance, our RACE CAR lost only about 5% of its TBN. You are claiming your street car lost 45% of its TBN? Does that TBN align with the additive concentration to you? It darn sure doesn't me. I've only seen one other oil that becomes that acidic that quickly, and it only has 20% as much calcium as what is shown in this report. I'm surprised you would keep running the oil after the first report when the alleged TBN came back at only 5.9. Again, I am finding that the data provided contains enough inconsistencies on its own for me to question its validity, without comparing it to known good data.

Similar issue with viscosity. The numbers neither match what we have seen in a rather extensive study, nor even make sense on their own.

I bring up KAPS and Samsonas, as they Eastern European companies who are now specifying Millers. Did not say they used to spec Amsoil, but when companies of their reputation start specifying an oil that is a relative newcomer, it is a threat to the more established brands, all of them.

I want to apologize to everyone else out there for having this issue, which obviously has some history, for becoming public. I hope my desire to "defend" false assertions about the product I sell is understandable.

 

[wlyszkow]

Originally Posted By: 67King
When you contacted me in August asking detailed info, I sent the info to Millers, as I was suspicious. The reply I got was:

"Our guy in Poland has been contacted by the same person who he knows privately to be the distributor of Amsoil and other lubricants, fuel treatments etc in Poland."


It is untrue information since I am banking industry employee for almost 20 years but thank you for providing me with its source... In Poland it is quite usual to call you 'dealer' if you find something good/better or recommend it and to call you 'unfair competitor' or worse.. when you say anything less praise about their products or service... ;-(

 

[wlyszkow]

Originally Posted By: 67King

To my knowledge, WS2 powder is comprised of particles that are an order of magnitude larger than the NT additive Millers uses, and powder is not to my knowledge a fullerence. Calling WS2 powder "nanotechnology" would be analogous to calling graphite powder or soot C60 fullerenes. It just isn't so.

There are nano WS2 fullerenes of course... Learn e.g. at www.apnano.com - dual action good stuff like from your website.

 

[wlyszkow]

Originally Posted By: 67King
You are claiming your street car lost 45% of its TBN? Does that TBN align with the additive concentration to you? It darn sure doesn't me. I've only seen one other oil that becomes that acidic that quickly, and it only has 20% as much calcium as what is shown in this report. I'm surprised you would keep running the oil after the first report when the alleged TBN came back at only 5.9. Again, I am finding that the data provided contains enough inconsistencies on its own for me to question its validity, without comparing it to known good data.

I understand sale pressure/targets but please do not write such things in public as professional oils distributor. Search this Forum and learn more about VOA, UOA, TBN changes with time/mileage and TAN / acidity increase - especially using highly loaded racing oils...
Then, you will agree with me that above changes of TBN and TAN in fact were quite normal but running racing oil for 20 000 miles by manufacturer professionals seems to me quite confusing... Good-luck!

 

[Tonystewart]

I changed the oil in my 2006 Sienna Limited with the 5w30 formula.
I've used Motul EcoEnergy, Eneos Sustina in this engine with great results, over 130,000 miles. Synthetic since new 17 miles

 

[GaleHawkins]

67King I just learned about the additive of hexagonal boron nitride for the first time a couple weeks ago and because very interested and at this point I am very confused as to how it works and its value.

I have enjoyed reading what you are teaching in this tread. Could you look at the lab test results below and give your take. At this point I am just trying to determine if hexagonal boron nitride is an oil additive that I should investigate in more detail and if so in what kind of real world engine use would it give a real advantage over just say a major synthetic motor usage?

Years ago I bought into the Tufoil (?) advantages and just do not want to make the same mistake if even 10% of the claims made for hexagonal boron nitride can be proven factual. Does your Nanodrive motor oil contain hexagonal boron nitride or is it only in your machine cutting coolants?

Paper about MoS2 and hexagonal boron nitride testing

 

[GaleHawkins]

67King this helped me grasp some of your teaching here.

 

[67King]

Gale, thanks for the notes. I can't go too far, as I'm getting close to proprietary info. I'll say a few things - the NT is only in our engine oils and gear oil in production. It has been used in another motorsports application through our partnership with an IndyCar team from last year, and it may make its way into some others. I'll be meeting with some folks in Mooresville next week to lay out a test plan.

What exactly is in our engine oils is proprietary. My recollection is that one of the ones that has been played with by some people out there is that it will absorb moisture pretty easily, and when it does, it becomes abrasive. I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what that mechanism is at the atomic level, and I don't with absolute certainty which material it is.

That said, specific to cylinder wear, I can tell you that it has certainly been a key part of what the aftermarket is doing to solve a problem with Porsche engines. Scuffing is a pretty common issue with teh newere water cooled flat sixes. Barry Hart of Hartech (www.hartech.org) has a pretty robust, but expensive, fix for it. He puts his own design liners in teh engines, which off of memory are Nikasil coated aluminum. They also incorporate some large cooling fins. He machines the cooling channels, uses a cooler thermostat, and specifies the Millers NT oils to his customers. I was fortunate enough to meet with him in November, and he feels very strongly that the Millers is a big factor in that.

I apologize that I can't get into too much detail, particularly in a public forum. You can of course feel free to give me a call at the number on the site you linked to the PDF document we wrote. I'm Harry, if I'm not in, leave a message, as I unfortunately have to work remotely a bit more than I'd like. Karl probably won't be able to provide you with the details you'd like, I'll do my best, but do bear in mind that a lot of info is proprietary.

 

[67King]

Gale, here's a chart in which you may be interested. It is the Ford spec Longlife 5w30 oil, with and without the NT additive. The NT stuff is Millers' EE line. The chart is from an ASTM high frequency reciprocating rig (HFRR) test that is designed to test friction and oil film for boundary lubrication conditions. It is over a temperature range, green line is oil film as measured resistively, and the blue line is coefficient of friction. Top chart is baseline oil, bottom is the EE version with the nanotechnology additive.

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: 67King
My recollection is that one of the ones that has been played with by some people out there is that it will absorb moisture pretty easily, and when it does, it becomes abrasive. I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what that mechanism is at the atomic level, and I don't with absolute certainty which material it is.


Just re-read this for clarity. The ambiguity I reference is pertaining to the stuff that absorbs moisture, and exactly how it is that that happens, and NOT the NT product that Millers uses. I understand that pretty clearly.

 

[kschachn]

Can you clarify exactly which ASTM test that is?

Originally Posted By: 67King
Gale, here's a chart in which you may be interested. It is the Ford spec Longlife 5w30 oil, with and without the NT additive. The NT stuff is Millers' EE line. The chart is from an ASTM high frequency reciprocating rig (HFRR) test that is designed to test friction and oil film for boundary lubrication conditions. It is over a temperature range, green line is oil film as measured resistively, and the blue line is coefficient of friction. Top chart is baseline oil, bottom is the EE version with the nanotechnology additive.

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you clarify exactly which ASTM test that is?


I BELIEVE it is D6079, which was initially developed to test lubricity of diesel fuel in injectors, but has been found to be a good standardized test for oil film and CF, as well. Will try to verify.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Thanks 67King. This kind of info is what lead me to finally register and not just read the site. The developing knowledge base concerning nano technology in lubrication is great here.

 

[67King]

FWIW, SAE published another article: http://articles.sae.org/12798/

 

[INDYMAC]

How did Millers lubricants do in the Indycar series last year?

 

[Merkava_4]

What's it made out of ? Is it still made out of crude oil ?

 

[67King]

To the last two posters, thank you both for your service!

On the Herta usage. Engine oil was used in their trainer series cars, but not the IndyCar, as Honda has a bit of control over that. On the gearbox oil, it worked VERY well for them. They would typically get 1900 miles on a ring and pinion (which they call crown wheel and pinion, or CWP), at most they got 2500 miles, at which point they were replaced. They were getting nearly 5000 miles out of them with the Millers gearbox oil. Velocity did a show on PRI this year where they interviewed us, and Todd spoke up about the gear oils. I'm trying to get a copy of that video to show. But here is a letter he wrote detailing this:
Herta gearbox oil letter

They also used a damper oil that Millers developed. The NT was important, as it helped reduce stiction (shaft/bushing interface friction), but more importantly is thermal stability. VI on damper oils is 350 or so. BHA was also very happy with the damper oil, but its performance is in the context of how it performed as a base damper oil, moreso than the benefits of the NT. Nevertheless, here is what they had to say about it:
Damper oil letter

The stuff made for the Dyson EV was bespoke for that purpose. I don't know the details about it, but the oil of the first SAE article was all fully synthetic. Group IV, 3 types of Group V, and a little bit of III to maintain the proper PAO/ester/additive balance. There are no Group II oils with the NT, though.

 

[INDYMAC]

Thanks for the feedback and congratulations. Are you signed up again with Herta for this year? Any other IRL teams?

 

[PhillipM]

Originally Posted By: 67King

They also used a damper oil that Millers developed. The NT was important, as it helped reduce stiction (shaft/bushing interface friction), but more importantly is thermal stability. VI on damper oils is 350 or so. BHA was also very happy with the damper oil, but its performance is in the context of how it performed as a base damper oil, moreso than the benefits of the NT.


Do you happen to have a part number for that? I wrote to Millers not last week asking them if they intended to do a damper oil with the NT additive because I could see it being a big benefit with the plain bearings and oscillating motion giving boundary lubrication most of the time, and I need a 10L case of damper oil shortly, but they haven't got back to me yet