Motorcycle oil

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quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
msparks, my guess it's that he ran into someone (maybe a few someone's) which preach Amsoil as though it was the solution to everything ... obesity, hair loss, toenail fungus, etc ...
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That tends to turn me off as well.
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--- Bror Jace[/QB]

I don't understand why a few people have to ruin it for everyone
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Anyhow, if you get down to VA with the bike maybe we can go for a ride.
 
Almost all of the Japanese bikes share the oil with the trans/clutch. The HD's, Ducati's, and the large touring bikes have a separate trans oil.
By the way, Triumph's come from the factory with Mobil 1.
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So, to the guys who think Mobil 1 automotive oil is fine for sump-sharing bikes ... why did Mobil 1 come out with a bike-specific formula?
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Do you think Mobil is merely trying to rip you guys off?
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--- Bror Jace

"I was a patriot before being a patriot was cool."
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So, to the guys who think Mobil 1 automotive oil is fine for sump-sharing bikes ... why did Mobil 1 come out with a bike-specific formula?

Do you think Mobil is merely trying to rip you guys off?

--- Bror Jace

My take on motorcycle-specific oil is it makes the customer more at ease with the purchase.I do NOT think just any auto oil is appropriate in all motorcycle applications,even if it has the same viscosity.
I'm not here to convert ANYONE,I'm here to learn more about lubrication so I can make better decisions about my vehicles.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
So, to the guys who think Mobil 1 automotive oil is fine for sump-sharing bikes ... why did Mobil 1 come out with a bike-specific formula?
confused.gif


Do you think Mobil is merely trying to rip you guys off?
shocked.gif


--- Bror Jace

"I was a patriot before being a patriot was cool."
patriot.gif


At the time Mobil came out with the bike oil their position was that while their SJ rated 15W50 meet the requirements for four stroke motorcycle engines, it was quite possible that later formulations would not. While they do not say that the SL formulation can't be used, they no longer make the claim that it is suitable for bike use.

I currently use either Mobil 1 bike oil or amsoil. The lower levels of zinc and phosphorus in the 15W50 supersyn has me concerned that it may not work well in my bike's transmission.

[ July 31, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: DNS ]
 
There wasn't much difference in performance between the M1 motorcycle oils and the old M1 15w50 car oils. The chemistry was a bit different, the M/C oil had a bit more Zn and P, and used Ca instead of Mg for acid nuetralization. The MC oil is $8/qt and the M1 15w50 was $4/qt.

Many people figured that was a rip off. Who wouldn't?

I've used both in my motorcycles. Although I will admit that I've never used the auto grade oil in my most recent bike.

quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
So, to the guys who think Mobil 1 automotive oil is fine for sump-sharing bikes ... why did Mobil 1 come out with a bike-specific formula?
confused.gif


Do you think Mobil is merely trying to rip you guys off?
shocked.gif


--- Bror Jace

"I was a patriot before being a patriot was cool."
patriot.gif


 
DNS: "In the case of SJ oils, most of the car oils in viscosities suitable for bike use (10W40, 20W50, 15W50, etc) did not have a significant reduction in anti-wear additives and had as much or more than many bike specific oils. The SL grading doesn't require lower levels of zinc and phosphorus than SJ in the heavier viscosities, but a few, such as Mobil have reduced them anyway (zinc and phorphorus specifically)."

I've heard of this ... but have not seen direct proof ... or even solid evidence of it. Of course, I never really looked too hard as all my transportation has those pesky 3rd and 4th wheels.
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"... the bottom line is that some car oils are fine for bike use but you need to be a knowledgeable consumer rather than grab any old oil and think its suitable for your bike."

I think you make a really good point. I'm pretty sure my brother and Johnny haven't put nearly this amount of thought or research into their oil selections and I doubt either appreciates my advice much ... if at all.
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Johnny is older and doesn't push his machinery too hard but my brother is younger and has always been hard on his rolling stock.

Rugerman1, yes, I'm aware of the Buell/Harley relationship but I have no idea which bikes have engines and trannies sharing a sump. When talking to some dude about his bike, that's usually the first question I ask.

msparks, my guess it's that he ran into someone (maybe a few someone's) which preach Amsoil as though it was the solution to everything ... obesity, hair loss, toenail fungus, etc ...
wink.gif
That tends to turn me off as well.
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Oh, and I tend to agree with Bob about grizzled mechanics and the tales they tell. As much as I find them charming characters with a LOT of useful experience and information, I don't include their oil brand preferences in the "useful" category. Too many are going on old wives tales, suspicious cause-and-effect (anecdotal) theories, etc ...

I knew a whole shop of these types who swore that the only oil you used in a diesel was non-detergent oil.
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This was over a decade ago and maybe these guys have smartened up since then ... well ... Nahhh, probably not.
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--- Bror Jace

[ July 31, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Bror Jace ]
 
Numbers, Bob!

Many of the MC oils have lower levels of anti-wear additives than some of the SL car oils! I've seen MC oils under 1000ppm in both zinc and phosphorus. On average, the bike oils are indeed a tad higher in ZDDP, I will admit.

In your long "use bike oil" post, you imply that engine oils in general do not have the HT/HS to deal with the conditions found in a bike's combined transmission and that they must continously rely on their EP lubricants. If having an above-average level of EP lubricants is so critical, why do so many bike oils have NO moly, and only API SL-levels of ZDDP?

Better yet, how about some reliable HT/HS data on these MC oils?

If the transmissions in these bikes are s-l-o-w-l-y getting trashed by the lack of EP's in SL oil, don't you think that analysis would reveal ususually high wear metals? I want some numbers.

You guys haven't convinced me. You know how important numbers are when selecting a lubricant. Don't lose your objectivity just because the vehicle has half the number of wheels. Show me some proof that MC oils have better viscosity retention, better HT/HS, and that they'll promote proper power transfer in a bike with a marginal clutch (only a SICK bike with weak clutch-springs or worn-out clutch plates would have any trouble with SL oils anyway).

Until then, put me in the SL bucket. 20W-50 flavor.

RM
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
So, to the guys who think Mobil 1 automotive oil is fine for sump-sharing bikes ... why did Mobil 1 come out with a bike-specific formula?

Do you think Mobil is merely trying to rip you guys off?


Follow the money...

Mobil isn't in business to make oil. They're in business to make money. Oil is only the means.
 
quote:

Originally posted by richard612:
Numbers, Bob!

Many of the MC oils have lower levels of anti-wear additives than some of the SL car oils! I've seen MC oils under 1000ppm in both zinc and phosphorus. On average, the bike oils are indeed a tad higher in ZDDP, I will admit.

In your long "use bike oil" post, you imply that engine oils in general do not have the HT/HS to deal with the conditions found in a bike's combined transmission and that they must continously rely on their EP lubricants. If having an above-average level of EP lubricants is so critical, why do so many bike oils have NO moly, and only API SL-levels of ZDDP?

Better yet, how about some reliable HT/HS data on these MC oils?

If the transmissions in these bikes are s-l-o-w-l-y getting trashed by the lack of EP's in SL oil, don't you think that analysis would reveal ususually high wear metals? I want some numbers.

You guys haven't convinced me. You know how important numbers are when selecting a lubricant. Don't lose your objectivity just because the vehicle has half the number of wheels. Show me some proof that MC oils have better viscosity retention, better HT/HS, and that they'll promote proper power transfer in a bike with a marginal clutch (only a SICK bike with weak clutch-springs or worn-out clutch plates would have any trouble with SL oils anyway).

Until then, put me in the SL bucket. 20W-50 flavor.

RM


Richard I totally agree, You should get some numbers on all the bikes you all are using.

Let me clarify something here as well as most are missing this BIG time.

It wasn't until 96/97 that oils had changed from SH to/ SL, and at that time is when the zddp antiwear additives were reduced. Not from the SJ to the SL, therefore SJ and SL are not different for the most part in reference to the zddp levels.

There is some motor oils that DO use MOLY, one of which calls it MPZ, moly ph zinc, And I'm sure you know which one that is. Does it work, quite frankly, I have yet to see a bike oil's analysis so I cannot tell you their levels now, but in comparision to a standard car engine oil, if those numbers were not any better, I would not use them(I dont' anyway). I cannot see using something that is specific for that applications and in refference to bikes, particularly older ones without cooling systems, This is where it be comes really detrimental. As stated before, not sharing gear case and oil sump, have a oil/water cooler, then go for it, as it should hold up no problem, but take those things away and share the gear box with sump oil, another story.

I have seen motul,torco oils most commonly used in dirt racing and some street racing and found a few oils burnt under 1500 miles, again, this is under extremes.

I think your point of getting #'s is an excellent idea and should be followed up if we can get riders to participate. I do remember one guy posted one on my old board let me see if I can find it, or it was a question as to what happend to all his zinc, either way, car oil in m/c. Depletion levels was down.

found it, here is a copy
code:

----------------------------

Does zinc deplete with use?

From: RM

Date: 27 Jan 2002

Time: 11:42:36



Comments

Does Zinc deplete with use?



I had a 3k mile sample of Mobil 1 15W-50 from a

combined transmission (with wet clutch)

motorcycle engine analyzed. The numbers all

looked good except for the viscosity (13.3cSt @

100C) and the Zinc was 104ppm. Any thoughts on

why the zinc was so low?





Thanks, RM





PS. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE spare me the "no SJ car

oil in a motorcycle" lecture. We'll save that

debate for some time in the future...



----------------------------



bobistheoilguy's response,





without more numbers, it is hard to really see

the whole picture. oxidation, nitration, fuel

dilution and such could all effect these

readings.





so here is my thoughts on what you have given.

first thing i noticed is you said your using a

15w50 and it appears your oil had dropped a grade

to a 40wt. now several questions come to mind as

to why. oxidation levels %? if too high shows oil

is breaking down under the current conditions. of

course also having a higher spread between your

newtonain(15) and kinematic(50) levels means you

are relying more on the VI improvers to maintain

viscosity. under higher levels of stess from

shearing (associated with bikes) the vi improvers

are failing to return to the 50wt and are weaking

out. this would not be uncommon in a m/c since

the oil is under higher demands than normal

applications. when oil shears, it tears the

viscosity of the base oil down mometarily to it's

origina newtonian wt in this case 15, but after

it has passed the shear zone in the engine, the

vi improvers are suppose to spring back to its

higher form or 50wt in this case. since your

demands are stressing the base oil by shearing

it's base viscosity, the oil has to rely more on

the barrier lubricant that is present and in this

case is zinc.





in my experiences in riding, i have found that

very few of us is going to ride in super cold

weather and tend to experience the performance of

a bike.(accelerate hard and such). that's why i

use a 20w50 in mine, provides a higher level of

hydrodynamic lubrication(thicker base oil) and

the two numbers a closer together and don't rely

near as much on the additives for viscosity. now

the oil i use doesn't rely on zinc so much but

uses mos2 instead for it's main protection.

that's how it can be an sj/sl rated oil staying

with in the lower levels of zinc but yet have the

higher levels of barrier lubricant present. very

important in an m/c.





----------------------------



From: Terry Dyson



Date: 27 Jan 2002



Time: 20:50:05







Comments



It's rare to see ZDDP deplete at this rate. I

agree with bob that you are stressing this oil

past it's limits.Zinc should start no lower than

1200 ppm.Lately I have found this oil to shear

back to 40w in high stress applications,your

clutch pack and valvetrain. It starts at 18 cSt

range on fresh oil. Are you running any other

additive in the bike and how long was the drain

interval?





----------------------------



Here's the complete analysis:





Water:
tested) Viscosity@100C: 13.3cSt % Solids: Trace %

Oxidation: 18.9 % Nitration: 17.1 TBN: 5.6





Spectrographic Analysis -----------------------

Iron: 29ppm Chromium: 1ppm Lead: 2ppm Copper:

24ppm Tin: 2ppm Aluminum: 42ppm Nickel: 0ppm

Silver: 0ppm Manganese: 6ppm Silicon: 11ppm

Boron: 52ppm Sodium: 4ppm Magnesium: 958ppm

Calcium: 898ppm Barium: 0ppm Phosphorus: 805ppm

Zinc: 104ppm Molybdenum: 6ppm Titanium: 0ppm

Vanadium: 0ppm Cadmium: 0ppm



------------------



From: Terry Dyson

Date: 28 Jan 2002

Time: 13:55:34



Comments

Based on your results RM, The oil is being

Chopped and the zinc is being used up in boundary

layer lube because of the weakness of the M1 in

this application. I still don't know how long

(time) this oil went vs mileage. Find another oil

for this motorcycle. What brand and size is the

engine/trans? Terry



---------------------

From: RM

Date: 28 Jan 2002

Time: 19:29:14



Comments

I reached the 3k mark in about 3 months. The bike

is almost never short-tripped. Once started, it

gets run for many miles.



There are quite a few hours on that oil, however.

The bike is a big "enduro" type bike, a KLR650

(single-cylinder). This particular oil sample was

subjected to two off-road rides that lasted for

most of the day. I also blasted up and down the

freeway at or near WOT for 20 miles or so on

three different occasions. This was in hot desert

conditions in the early summer.



----------------------

From: Terry Dyson

Date: 28 Jan 2002

Time: 20:14:37



Comments

Actually the M1 did it's job for the treatment

and time frame but there ain't much left to the

lubricant. You pay to have 50wt protection and

you are barely at 40wt. Yes the nitration and

oxidation #'s are good. The wear metals could be

better in my humble opinion.



-------------------------

From: RM

Date: 28 Jan 2002

Time: 23:58:33



Comments

The analysis was done by OAI (via Spamsoil). The

only wear metal they flagged was Aluminum. I'm

surprised that the numbers aren't much worse

considering how much clutch slippage this oil saw

(one ride in particular was a pretty rough one on

the clutch).



I will say that the oil that comes out of this

bike smells like absolute sh!t. It almost reminds

me of lighting a bucket of popcorn on fire. Maybe

I'm smelling the organic resins used as a binder

material in the clutches?



I would consider using a moto-specific oil

---------------------------


well, that's a start... In this case, as you can see, some elevated wear #'s, oil burnt, viscosity out of grade.

Lets see some of what you have richard.
 
In my opinion the test run by "Motorcycle Consumer News" was a poorly run test and not a very good write up.

At best it was an 'arm wave' that concluded some syns are better than most dinos. I believe the authors admitted this but in a more indirect way.

Their negative comments concerning Mo had to do with wet clutches, centrifugal cluchtes and starter engagement. Note that these concerns were not witnessed by the testers. They had read about them in a tech paper written by manufactures who produce a bunch of scooters.

My primary complaint of the test was lack of control. They tried to sample oil at 1,000 miles for the various test bikes. Well that didn't work out. The best rated oil only ran 850 miles while others ran twice that. What kind of test is that?
 
The testing by Motorcycle Consumer was at least a serious attempt at objectivity. Much of the analytical data on raw oil analsyis was very informative, no bias there... No, it wasn't perfect but from a lube engineer's perspective, I found the article well written and making a good effort to explore the many nuances of oil additization, etc. I have never seen an objective equal to it in automotive oils, much less motorcycle oils; a pretty outstanding effort..

Highly recommended reading from my vantage point.. I wish it were more readily available for download, however..
 
I do have several m/c shops using the schaeffers for over 3+yrs and not one instance of clutch problems due to lubrication, ie, moly.

Now on georges comments about moly,
Schaeffers has a unique blend where they run no more than about 200ppm or less of Mo, and as pointed out, the others were 500ppm+. This is not a good idea as it is an overload of that barrier additive, So there may have been direct results in those cases. As many know, too much of a good thing can be bad and this may be one of those times as well as too little.

Other results with to much barrier additive can result in higher levels of oxidation as too much of the barrier additive would overtake the antioxidant/detergent additives and not allowing them to work keeping the oil neutral and clean.

This would also be a prime example of why one should not mix in additives as it can overload on a good wear protection additive but hinder the base stocks ability to survive due to lack of other needed additives to maintain it's acid stability and such.

Quite frankly, I find this interesting as I have seen many "full synth's doing these so called extended drains, and here comes a pao blend that seems to stand with them. What gives?, it's not the base oil so much as it is the proper levels of blended additives that help the base oil maintain extended oil drains. This is also true in the case of synth base oils vs mineral base oils ver's wear protection. So to those of you that think just because you run a full synth oil, car or bike oil, you need to re analyize your thinking as it(the base oil) is not the thing that makes or breaks an oil, but the additives that assist the oil. Therefore, in bikes,a higher level of barrier additive is needed than in cars, but like pointed out, in proper moderation.
 
Guys, I just want to be clear about the question I asked above. It was not a smart-@$$ remark … although, coming from me, that’s not outside the realm of possibility.
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In many products, I have seen the same old, same old being packaged for a specialty application … at triple the price.

On the other hand, I’ve seen honest-to-goodness specialty products developed and marketed for specialty applications. As was said before, there's no substitute for being an informed consumer. And, as Bob detailed, I feel that the use of the oil by a gearbox puts very different demands on it and I still caution people not to use the current emissions-friendly oils in bikes that share a sump.

Richard, you asked for numbers … and I thought it was perfectly legitimate to do so. But, as you know, those kinds of numbers are difficult to come by. What Bob provided was interesting but by no means proof. Still, if you can find numbers to the contrary, please post them here or in the analysis section.

What I don’t want to hear is someone say something akin to the following: “Heck, I’ve been riding and maintaining bikes for over 30 years and I’ve had no problems using any old oil off-the-shelf …”

That statement means nothing. As Bob points out, the ZDDP levels have only started to drop severely in the last few years and this drop might have been delayed in some of the heavier weights often favored by motorcyclists. Bikes running typical oil intervals would only start seeing evidence of accelerated wear now and in the next few years.

I suppose you can wait 5-10 years for “proof”
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or you apply what you know about lubricants and machines and play it safe using a better oil in your precious ride. I call the API starburst approval symbol the “Kiss of Death” and this is doubly true for gearboxes.

--- Bror Jace

”I was a patriot before being a patriot was cool.”
patriot.gif
 
There was an extremely well written motorcycle oil test published a while back by Motorcycle Consumer News (which contains no advertising, no bias, says it "as it is" type writing). It was on the order of 20+ pages of tests, summaries and comparative graphs. The consensus from the various test which included real world riding was that the Mobil 1 MX4T was one of the top rated oils, along with Amsoil and Redline for non V-twin engines.
Their testing did reveal problems with moly additized blends, primarily in the starter engagement clutch. Oils with as little as 500 ppm of moly caused slippage problems, with the hotter the engine, the greater the problem. The one oil missing from the test was Schaeffers, unfortunately, as they tested all the popular brands, with 31 different oils in all.. Excellent reading..
Honda's HP4 is now blended without Moly. Only the HP-4M has moly and is sold with the caveat "for racing applications only".
 
Bob, with my order I'm thinking of getting some #106 Micron Moly 10W40 for little bro's Ninja.

He's currently running off-the-shelf 10W40 Castrol GTX.
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Think the Micron Moly would be a good upgrade? Little bro is not a big believer in synthetics, by the way. I'd also like to stay with the same weight he's already using.
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--- Bror Jace
 
It's not just motorcycles that use auto oil in their transmissions. My '94 Honda Civic Si called for ordinary automotive oil, not motorcycle oil, not gear oil, in it's manual transmission.

And so I put Mobil 1 10w-30 in it. I used SG then SJ then SL over the years and sold the car with 136,000 miles and a manual transmission in perfect working order . Just when is the manual transmission supposed to fail with auto oil?

[ August 31, 2002, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
 
Jay, to be sure of what I'm saying, bikes share a sump with their tranny. So, the same supply of oil has to put up both with the heat of the piston areas as well as the shear stress of the constant gear clash.

Even most trannies that used to call for a certain weight of motor oil in them now specify something different. Honda is a good example of this. They used to specify 10W30 ... now they ask that you use their MTF and use motor oil only in an emergency.

As for Mobil 1 in the gearbox, I found it made the shifting in my '90 Integra awful notchy and I dumped it within a couple weeks and switched to MTL.

Maybe you're a gentle driver but the synchros in the Honda trannies are notorious. As for your mileage, even a neglected manual transmission should last 130,000 miles or more. If you made it to 200,000 miles and it still shifted very well (like some Integra trannies I know of) THAT would be impressive.

--- Bror Jace
 
OK, I have a question to all. I have run both motorcycle-specific and auto-grade oils in both my bikes. I have a friend that bought a 2002 Suzuki, and another that has a 2002 Kawa Vulcan. In both manuals the words are almost verbatum: " use a quality 10w-40 motor oil rated SL or better:. If car oil is so bad, why do the maufactures recommend these oils? No where does it say anything about motorcycle-specific oils. It is mainly concerned more about viscosity than anything. What gives? Thanx in advance
 
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