Motorcycle oil
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Cant detract a statement....specially when Ford issued TSBs on it. Search TSBs for the early 90's listing the 'breakaway torque test' (applies to ford 8.8 rears with trac-loc differentials.)
Honda of course, tends not to list TSBs or recalls, but a perusal of the sab-mag Faqa (various web locations) will fill you in on clutch woes.
Quad, "detract " sums up the most consistant theme I have read posted by you IMHO.
I attempt to follow your logic and give you the opportunity to get back to the subject and off you go on another tangent.
You make bold statements with smidgens of fact , some out of context, then run to next subject.
Is there a reason for the inconsistancy that we can help you with ?
We are not your enemies and sincerely appreciate your obvious expertise and knowledge in mechanics.
This board was designed to be a no spin, learning clearing house not a chest beating arena, each participant may know more than others on certain subjects and most here are willing to share alot of that.
People that attempt to "pull punches" generally don't last very long at BITOG.
Sincerely, Terry
I attempt to follow your logic and give you the opportunity to get back to the subject and off you go on another tangent.
You make bold statements with smidgens of fact , some out of context, then run to next subject.
Is there a reason for the inconsistancy that we can help you with ?
We are not your enemies and sincerely appreciate your obvious expertise and knowledge in mechanics.
This board was designed to be a no spin, learning clearing house not a chest beating arena, each participant may know more than others on certain subjects and most here are willing to share alot of that.
People that attempt to "pull punches" generally don't last very long at BITOG.
Sincerely, Terry
MolaKule
Staff member
Amsoil hasn't used di-esters since the middle '80's, except for compressor oils. I know of no modern polyol ester that attacks clutch surfaces.
Most synthetic lube oils are PAO, and various esters, but I know of no one who uses di-esters in gear lubes.
I also have not heard of Ford stating that one cannot use PAO/ester synthetic gear lubes. My daughter's Ford Explorer uses, from the factory, full synth lubes in her 4X4, and Pennzoil's new gear lubes would have to have a warning about their non-use in Ford diffy's, which is non-existent.
Most synthetic lube oils are PAO, and various esters, but I know of no one who uses di-esters in gear lubes.
I also have not heard of Ford stating that one cannot use PAO/ester synthetic gear lubes. My daughter's Ford Explorer uses, from the factory, full synth lubes in her 4X4, and Pennzoil's new gear lubes would have to have a warning about their non-use in Ford diffy's, which is non-existent.
I'm an engineer, not a chemist. There is difference.
The reason I bothered tuning in on this thread is your statement:
"...ester oils tend to disolve the glue in the fiber plates. "
As far as I can tell, you don't know if this is true or not. You've seen a TSB 10 years ago that had something to do with Ford rear ends. Big deal.
Perhaps if you had rephrased your orginal statement so it didn't sound like you were an expert on esters and clutches, then I wouldn't have taken issue with it.
The reason I bothered tuning in on this thread is your statement:
"...ester oils tend to disolve the glue in the fiber plates. "
As far as I can tell, you don't know if this is true or not. You've seen a TSB 10 years ago that had something to do with Ford rear ends. Big deal.
Perhaps if you had rephrased your orginal statement so it didn't sound like you were an expert on esters and clutches, then I wouldn't have taken issue with it.
No, but ford DOES make (or did rather) organic based friction material for clutch plates for its limited slip drive axles - the same composition of course as the clutch plates used in motorcycles.
You being a chemist (your claim) you can probably describe with full detail why the heavy use of di- and polyol ester oils has a very high solvency towards said organic material and nitrile products. I, not being a chemist, cannot without quoting a bunch of sources. Then you could probably tell us why ford explicitly, and honda thru the back alleys would recommend against the use of -ester based oils. (hint: what was the composition of amsoil , redline and rp at this point in time?)
Just because you choose not to pay attention to what occurs in your crankcase or rear axles, does not mean the rest of planet chooses the same path. Much to the chagrin of **** Johnson (member of this site, amsoil rep, my old jobber) I have actually SEEN the TSB from ford recommending to not use specifically 75-90 GL5 diester product with respect to 8.8 trac-loc rearends. This was circa 93? (that about right ****?) He told me he would follow up with amsoil, but I never heard anything back, but I do note that amsoil is no longer so heavy on -ester basestocks. hmmmmmm.
Satterfi,
I've been an Amsoil dealer since 1980 and I can' recall seeing anything about compatibility problems with ester based synlubes and clutch plates. FWIW, Amsoil went to PAO/ester bases oils several decades ago, for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that PAO basestocks work well with the same types of additive chemstries that are developed for petroleum oils.
TooSlick
I've been an Amsoil dealer since 1980 and I can' recall seeing anything about compatibility problems with ester based synlubes and clutch plates. FWIW, Amsoil went to PAO/ester bases oils several decades ago, for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that PAO basestocks work well with the same types of additive chemstries that are developed for petroleum oils.
TooSlick
ahh but there is the rub, I was an amsoil dealer from 91? 92? thru appx 98, the literature I have from them, specifically lauds the use of esters over other makers (like M1 for example) and gave amsoil its superior capability to swell seals (eat them up) and clean out the insides (disolve organics) - so sayeth they.
So was amsoil lying? as of the mid 90s they were not using a primarily ester mix as opposed to M1 primary PAO mix?
**** I hit enter too soon....
the next part is: ford went to an auburn licensed cone clutch differential in some (all?) models - which requires no additives AND the part number for the trac loc plates has changed - different composition?
The only people not fully on board are honda - peruse boards for the bigger bikes and all complain about wiped clutches
[ July 20, 2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: QuadDriver ]
MolaKule
Staff member
There are actually three issues here and I will try and sort it out.
I don't think anyone was lying, I think it is the "timeline" that is at issue.
1. Swell sealing is not the same as "eating them up."
When Mobil first used the synthetic PAO's in their 5W20, they had feedback saying the then current engines leaked with the PAO fluid. Why? Because the PAO didn't swell the seals like the Group I oil base would do. PAO's don't harden seals, they just don't swell them. Someone forgot to consider the fact that the natural sulfurs and other elements in the GI's did just that. So Mobil then went to a PAO/ester mix. About the same time or slightly before the Mobil issue, Amsoil found that di-esters were being used in the previous generation of jet engines. It was then that Amsoil decided to use these esters and with special additives, formulated the first API approved synthetic SAE 10W40.
2. A bit later, Amsoil went the PAO/ester route but changed to PAO/TMP esters, instead of the all di-ester route. This combination provided a bit of seal swell similar to the older Group I base oils. The background for changing to PAO/TMP esters were that the di-esters had become very expensive and the supply was getting tight. In addition, it was found that the PAO/ester combo could do as well or better than the all ester formulation, and the combo was slightly more economical. For a background on esters, see my article called, "Esters, General" in the Interesting Articles thread.
3. I think what Amsoil was touting in your literature was the fact that the esters being used provided a bit of seal swell as a well as additive miscibility.
Peruse any motorcycle board and look at bikes in the 100 HP and up range, and you'll find the clutch never lasts long regardless of the bike. Back when I used to ride and race sport bikes (late 80s, early 90s) we were getting 10-15k on a clutch whether Suzuki, Kawie or Honda. Can't say on the Yamies 'cuz I never had one of those.
In my experience, Honda clutches aren't any stronger or weaker than the others. A Magna with shims / jets / exhaust (like mine) puts down 85-90 RWHP on the dyno and those who ride it hard are getting around 60,000 miles on the OEM clutch. That's more than 3 times the life of the clutch in my old GSXR-750.
[ July 20, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: MRC01 ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Which synthetics were those?
Well, we have really goten off the subject of esters attacking clutch plates, but putting a stop leak in an auto tranny is usually a stop-gap measure at best, since the oxidized fluid build-up attacks the seals.
[ July 20, 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Nonsense on the esters. I use Motul (100% ester) in my 2-stroke's premix and tranny. Never had a seal problem. BTW, my TZ250's engine lasts a LOT longer between rebuilds with Motul over dino oil. That stuff works great!
My 1986 Honda XLV 750 has done over 90,000km,the previous owner was changing his Motul oil and filter at 3000km intervals - I'm not that anal retentive,but have carried on with the 3000km changes.This bike is air cooled with a dry sump,oil carried in the front down tubes - it runs very hot,so I now use Silkolene Pro 4 10/30,she's the good oil mate.
That's 17 yrs,90,000km on ester oils - and yes I did replace the clutch at 80,000km...just plain wore out.
That's 17 yrs,90,000km on ester oils - and yes I did replace the clutch at 80,000km...just plain wore out.
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