Maybe you should try doing oil analysis, this should help you confirm the oil drains that you are doing are okay.
Motorcycle oil
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Now that I know about doing an analysis and sending it to "Terry" - I'll definitely be doing it. It's too bad I didn't stumble on to this site earlier, because I would have done an analysis with the HD 360 oil and the Mobil 1. Harley's recommendation for oil changes is 5000 miles in normal service. Maybe if Redline is as good as folks on this forum have said it is - then what I might be comfortable with is to go 5000 miles, but change the filter at 2500. Or do you think it would be a waste to change the filter at 2500. Amsoil seems to be another good oil, but Redline is available locally at $7.95 a quart. Most guys on the Harley forums I frequent use M1 15W50. With some using M1 20W50 V-Twin, Amsoil and Belray.
[ August 25, 2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
[ August 25, 2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
"Most guys on the Harley forums I frequent use M1 15W50."
My brother and his brother-in-law (Johnny) both have new Kawasakis. My brother has the big Ninja and Johnny has the same engine (1100cc?) in a touring bike. Don't ask me the names, I like bikes ... but have never followed them closely enough to keep track of the players.
Johnny told me he uses Mobil 1 (don't know which weight) and I nearly fell off my chair since he's big into cars, etc ... I thought he'd know better.
He seemed a little slighted when I suggested he should switch to something specifically designed for motorcycles and not emission-friendly automobile oil so I changed the conversation. Gee, I hope neither of these guys expect to hang on to their bikes for several years.
I offered to order some special oil for baby-brother's bike but so far he hasn't answered me. He never liked taking my advice and I doubt he'll take me up on my offer.
My brother and his brother-in-law (Johnny) both have new Kawasakis. My brother has the big Ninja and Johnny has the same engine (1100cc?) in a touring bike. Don't ask me the names, I like bikes ... but have never followed them closely enough to keep track of the players.
Johnny told me he uses Mobil 1 (don't know which weight) and I nearly fell off my chair since he's big into cars, etc ... I thought he'd know better.
He seemed a little slighted when I suggested he should switch to something specifically designed for motorcycles and not emission-friendly automobile oil so I changed the conversation. Gee, I hope neither of these guys expect to hang on to their bikes for several years.
I offered to order some special oil for baby-brother's bike but so far he hasn't answered me. He never liked taking my advice and I doubt he'll take me up on my offer.
Mobil does make a motorcycle specific oil in 10W40 and 20W50 viscosities that are different foemulations than their car oils.quote:
Originally posted by Bror Jace:
"Most guys on the Harley forums I frequent use M1 15W50."
My brother and his brother-in-law (Johnny) both have new Kawasakis. My brother has the big Ninja and Johnny has the same engine (1100cc?) in a touring bike. Don't ask me the names, I like bikes ... but have never followed them closely enough to keep track of the players.
Johnny told me he uses Mobil 1 (don't know which weight) and I nearly fell off my chair since he's big into cars, etc ... I thought he'd know better.
He seemed a little slighted when I suggested he should switch to something specifically designed for motorcycles and not emission-friendly automobile oil so I changed the conversation. Gee, I hope neither of these guys expect to hang on to their bikes for several years.
I offered to order some special oil for baby-brother's bike but so far he hasn't answered me. He never liked taking my advice and I doubt he'll take me up on my offer.
"Mobil does make a motorcycle specific oil in 10W40 and 20W50 viscosities that are different foemulations than their car oils."
Yep. I knew that but thanks for the clarification.
Yep. I knew that but thanks for the clarification.
Rec.motorcycles has MANY people who have used non-motorcycle oil in their bikes for decades. They are not suffering from lubrication-related engine failures. Or failed/slipping clutches. Or slipping starter clutches (sprags). Until someone can show us solid evidence as to just why we should be spending extra for moto oil, we won't. Mfr claims don't count.quote:
Originally posted by Bror Jace:
Johnny told me he uses Mobil 1 (don't know which weight) and I nearly fell off my chair since he's big into cars, etc ... I thought he'd know better.
He seemed a little slighted when I suggested he should switch to something specifically designed for motorcycles and not emission-friendly automobile oil so I changed the conversation. Gee, I hope neither of these guys expect to hang on to their bikes for several years.
RM
[ July 27, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: richard612 ]
Read this page and tell me if you agree.I run 15w-50 Mobil1 in my '01 Buell X-1 Lightning. Motorcycle oil
I disagree with this. I would say the only reason not to run it is becuase of weight.
If you take a look at amsoils oil, they are pretty stiff on all of their additive packages. I don't see any emmissions problems with the samples I run.
From my understanding there are many many BMW's running Mobil 1 15w50 ( the car stuff). I don't see the problem with that. They all seem to running fine. Some with even over 100,000 miles.
According to an analysis posted to this forum, the SL grade has significantly lower levels of zinc and phosphorus than the SJ grade.quote:
Originally posted by rugerman1:
I was glad to see that Mobil1 car oil was/is as good as motorcycle-spec oil. If there is any difference in the SL grade,I would be surprised.
Wally-world had 5-quart jugs of 15W-50 for $10 a while back and I cleaned 'em out!
If you like your bike, I strongly recommend not using a conventional car oil, synth or not.
In bikes that DO NOT share the gear box, you can get away with this longer and some synth's will work better but still there is limitations involved . There is many who has the shared gearbox and this is where trouble will begin.
Failures due to lubrication is seldom obvious and doesn't normally happen just overnite. This type of wear is over a long period of time and I seriously have doubts that you can point lubrication as the culprit since the wear is at minimal amounts and takes awhile for it to appear and most failure will appear to be due to just normal wear. In a lot of cases, this would be true, but not all.
The reason so many can run a car oil is that they are using a heavier wt oil that provides better hydrodyamic properties in turn it takes longer to squeeze out between the parts thus providing an adaquate protection, with the exception of startup, this is good and this is why so many can get away with it. In the older days, harleys and such used the heaviest wt (50wt normally) which did exactly what I descibed above.
Now with the newer multiviscosity oils, the base oils are thinner, they rely on VI improvers to maintain the viscosity(good things about synth's) and they DO SHEAR down to the LOWER viscosity under demand.
OK, let me explain.
50wt oil cannot shear down to anything but a 50wt therefore it will not flow any faster than a 50wt thus maintaining a layer of oil under load longer.
a 20w50 is a 20wt oil with VI improvers that expand when heated up to operating temps to ACT like a 50wt oil, and when put between two surfaces that squeeze together, these vi's will compress back down momentarily to the 20wt and this WILL squeeze out FASTER than a straight 50wt.
What does this mean as for protection? If an oil takes longer to move, then it takes more or longer time for the pressure to move it, thus a layer of oil is still protecting the parts. So figure, 20wt-moves faster than 50wt. 15wt moves faster than 20wt and so on.
NOW, this is where the antiwear/antiscuffing additives called barrier additives such as moly, zddp and such come into play. When the shearing takes effect(and I can assure you it does with newer mutivisc oils) The barrier additive is coating/bonding on the surface and is what is known as the LAST LINE of DEFENSE for wear protection. This coating will handle anywhere from 15,-500,000 lbs of pressure depending on the barrier additive used and quanitiy. This is the main difference between M/c oils and convention OTC oils for cars. Cars are having to REDUCE this additive to maintain manufactures requirements for EPA concerns and this makes the oil an undesirable thing for bikes.
If you watch, most air cooled engines used a straight wt oil, (just FYI, a straight 30wt is thicker than a 20w50 since thats a 20wt with vi's). VW's, Harleys, generators,lawn equipment and such all used straight wts back then. Not so much now adays obviously but alot of these air cooled engines now have water/oil coolers incorporated which changes the whole process of how the oil maintains its hydrodynamic properties.
I myself have a small harley sportster and I use the Schaeffers 20w50 in the engine, and a specialized gear oil in the box which all of my lubricants that I use on there has moly in it for the barrier additive. The difference is the Schaeffers uses a high barrier additive that will provide the added protection over any of the conventional OTC oils including any of the synth's. This is also true with redline and amsoil's non api series 2 and 3000 oils.
So in my opinion, you think your doing yourself no harm running a conventional OTC synth or otherwise api certified oil, then more power to you but remember, the only one it hurts is YOUR pocketbook and not mine as the old saying goes, pay now or pay later.
[ July 30, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
In bikes that DO NOT share the gear box, you can get away with this longer and some synth's will work better but still there is limitations involved . There is many who has the shared gearbox and this is where trouble will begin.
Failures due to lubrication is seldom obvious and doesn't normally happen just overnite. This type of wear is over a long period of time and I seriously have doubts that you can point lubrication as the culprit since the wear is at minimal amounts and takes awhile for it to appear and most failure will appear to be due to just normal wear. In a lot of cases, this would be true, but not all.
The reason so many can run a car oil is that they are using a heavier wt oil that provides better hydrodyamic properties in turn it takes longer to squeeze out between the parts thus providing an adaquate protection, with the exception of startup, this is good and this is why so many can get away with it. In the older days, harleys and such used the heaviest wt (50wt normally) which did exactly what I descibed above.
Now with the newer multiviscosity oils, the base oils are thinner, they rely on VI improvers to maintain the viscosity(good things about synth's) and they DO SHEAR down to the LOWER viscosity under demand.
OK, let me explain.
50wt oil cannot shear down to anything but a 50wt therefore it will not flow any faster than a 50wt thus maintaining a layer of oil under load longer.
a 20w50 is a 20wt oil with VI improvers that expand when heated up to operating temps to ACT like a 50wt oil, and when put between two surfaces that squeeze together, these vi's will compress back down momentarily to the 20wt and this WILL squeeze out FASTER than a straight 50wt.
What does this mean as for protection? If an oil takes longer to move, then it takes more or longer time for the pressure to move it, thus a layer of oil is still protecting the parts. So figure, 20wt-moves faster than 50wt. 15wt moves faster than 20wt and so on.
NOW, this is where the antiwear/antiscuffing additives called barrier additives such as moly, zddp and such come into play. When the shearing takes effect(and I can assure you it does with newer mutivisc oils) The barrier additive is coating/bonding on the surface and is what is known as the LAST LINE of DEFENSE for wear protection. This coating will handle anywhere from 15,-500,000 lbs of pressure depending on the barrier additive used and quanitiy. This is the main difference between M/c oils and convention OTC oils for cars. Cars are having to REDUCE this additive to maintain manufactures requirements for EPA concerns and this makes the oil an undesirable thing for bikes.
If you watch, most air cooled engines used a straight wt oil, (just FYI, a straight 30wt is thicker than a 20w50 since thats a 20wt with vi's). VW's, Harleys, generators,lawn equipment and such all used straight wts back then. Not so much now adays obviously but alot of these air cooled engines now have water/oil coolers incorporated which changes the whole process of how the oil maintains its hydrodynamic properties.
I myself have a small harley sportster and I use the Schaeffers 20w50 in the engine, and a specialized gear oil in the box which all of my lubricants that I use on there has moly in it for the barrier additive. The difference is the Schaeffers uses a high barrier additive that will provide the added protection over any of the conventional OTC oils including any of the synth's. This is also true with redline and amsoil's non api series 2 and 3000 oils.
So in my opinion, you think your doing yourself no harm running a conventional OTC synth or otherwise api certified oil, then more power to you but remember, the only one it hurts is YOUR pocketbook and not mine as the old saying goes, pay now or pay later.
[ July 30, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
In the case of SJ oils, most of the car oils in viscosities suitable for bike use (10W40, 20W50, 15W50, etc) did not have a significant reduction in anti-wear additives and had as much or more than many bike specific oils. The SL grading doesn't require lower levels of zinc and phosphorus than SJ in the heavier viscosities, but a few, such as Mobil have reduced them anyway (zinc and phorphorus specifically).
IMO, the bottom line is that some car oils are fine for bike use but you need to be a knowledgeable consumer rather than grab any old oil and think its suitable for your bike.
You bike guys want to continue to use an SJ or SL automotive oil for your rides? Well, OK.
We know that gearboxes and the shear stress they produce require a stout barrier anti-wear additive package, the kind of additive package which has been steeply curtailed with the SJ and SL motor oils.
Now, some of you are saying that everything looks fine so far and that may appear to be the case but I can't help but believe that your gearbox (if not the engines with gear-driven cams) will experience greater wear as your miles pile up. If it were me, I wouldn't think of using an automotive oil for anything other than a quick system flush. I also won't use a motor oil in my car's manual transmission despite the fact that it calls for it (SH motor oil, specifically).
That sort of practice might be fine for the 'average' guy ... but not for me.
We know that gearboxes and the shear stress they produce require a stout barrier anti-wear additive package, the kind of additive package which has been steeply curtailed with the SJ and SL motor oils.
Now, some of you are saying that everything looks fine so far and that may appear to be the case but I can't help but believe that your gearbox (if not the engines with gear-driven cams) will experience greater wear as your miles pile up. If it were me, I wouldn't think of using an automotive oil for anything other than a quick system flush. I also won't use a motor oil in my car's manual transmission despite the fact that it calls for it (SH motor oil, specifically).
That sort of practice might be fine for the 'average' guy ... but not for me.
Gee, I lazily compose a reply off-line and Bob beats me to the punch!
Bror, did you know that Buell is a division of Harley-Davidson?H-D uses seperate oil for engine/trans.
Bob,what oil #'s do you run in your sportster? H-D doesn't release any specs on Sport-Trans.What vis is Sport-Trans?
One of the reasons I went with Mobil1 15W-50 was my service manager at Y-town H-D/Buell.Joe builds race engines(hates Amsoil),and built/drives a turbocharged Buell
.This man has more real world experience with Harley/Buell engines than I'll ever have.
Bob,what oil #'s do you run in your sportster? H-D doesn't release any specs on Sport-Trans.What vis is Sport-Trans?
One of the reasons I went with Mobil1 15W-50 was my service manager at Y-town H-D/Buell.Joe builds race engines(hates Amsoil),and built/drives a turbocharged Buell
Why does he hate Amsoil, becuase of the oil or some other reasonquote:
Originally posted by rugerman1:
One of the reasons I went with Mobil1 15W-50 was my service manager at Y-town H-D/Buell.Joe builds race engines(hates Amsoil),and built/drives a turbocharged Buell.This man has more real world experience with Harley/Buell engines than I'll ever have.
As far as running amsoil in a buell, I have a buddy that runs it and likes it. He has had less blow by(through the crankcase vent) than with mobil 1 that he was using before.
I use our 239s 30wt in the tranny and our 705 20w50 in the engine.quote:
Originally posted by rugerman1:
Bob,what oil #'s do you run in your sportster? H-D doesn't release any specs on Sport-Trans.What vis is Sport-Trans?
One of the reasons I went with Mobil1 15W-50 was my service manager at Y-town H-D/Buell.Joe builds race engines(hates Amsoil),and built/drives a turbocharged Buell.This man has more real world experience with Harley/Buell engines than I'll ever have.
As for your mechanic, he most likely rebuilds his engines more frequently than the average guy like most racers and to base an opinion on a race engine for an oil will not hold up in comparison to the average user that runs oils for much longer durations. Now If he drove it under normal conditions for standard drains, and has run the engine for a long duration of miles over the years with this oil being analyized during that time, I think then he might be more qualified to state that this oil would hold up well, but as racing goes, most run the hell our of them, then comes in and changes the oil. This does not demonstrate how that oil will do with longer usage such as any road user does. This is a common trap that people fall into thinking if you can use it to race then it'll work in mine. WRONG.
I have guys that mix trannie fluids in their readend gearlubes to reduce the fluid resistance for a slight better HP going through mud, does it mean you can run that in your's? Different applications.. different demands... different oils. Sorry, just that I have found very few actual mechanics that can tell me how oil works but everyone has an opinion to what works best for them which is no disputing their opinions as fact for their application.
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