More bailouts...

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Originally Posted By: ConfederateTyrant
I'm not saying the free market is perfect (nothing is), but sometimes excessive government is way more of an issue. I agree and disagree with a lot of things government and the free market do. Swaying the government and swaying the free market are two entirely different things.

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The basic notion is that you hold people accountable for their actions ..yet seem to give the "free market" a pass when it enables ..and, in fact, promotes those same behaviors.

The free market is promoting it to make money, but people still make the choice to give them money. If people didn't, then the market would shift to another idea. Think of a worthless invention, that very few people use/bought, I'm sure that invention wouldn't be sold very long. That's the same concept I'm getting at.

If people are accountable for their actions, and a lot of people pull away from unhealthy living, then fast food and tobacco will start changing their ideas to keep making money. Unhealthy lifestyle is more of freewill than the market. The market follows because people choose not to improve. As I've said before, if you ever want to become one of those evil rich people, then invent something that makes Americans lazier.


I think the basic point he was getting at was, for example, when a state like NY makes a law prohibiting a certain unhealthy type of grease from being used in the fryers, the "free market" types will fight it to the end, even though it's obviously bad for peoples health. Man, that was a run-on sentence.
 
Sorta.

My basic point is that you can't bolster the free market system on the one hand ..yet blame people who participate in it to their own harm and ONLY hold them 100% culpable for their actions.

Not that they're not responsible for their choices, per se~.

One cannot give a standing ovation to someone who hands out matches and spreads gasoline around at a profit ..as though they're some champion of the American Way of Life and the Free Enterprise system ..while out of the other side of your mouth spew forth lame senseless rhetorical points like "Those who play with matches ..tend to get burned".

It's a joke of sensible personal philosophy. It has no balance. It's a contradiction.

If the market spews forth toxic fumes and particulates, is it okay just because it smells good and people inhale deeply ..and the effects are long term??

I'm so proud of those who can profit off of future costs to the society with their wide spread success. Dam-n those who made them successful.
 
Quote:
I think the basic point he was getting at was, for example, when a state like NY makes a law prohibiting a certain unhealthy type of grease from being used in the fryers, the "free market" types will fight it to the end, even though it's obviously bad for peoples health. Man, that was a run-on sentence.

Remember, I said I agree with some regulations, and this was one of them. The free market would have shifted to it, if the people made a large enough outcry. There was an outcry, but representatives of the free market stated that trans fat made food taste good, which is ENTIRELY FALSE. In fact, a number of places tested trans fat free food before ever announcing the removal of it and the feedback was almost always positive. But due to the average ignorance of the typical American that eats fast food and doesn't exercise, they're willing to believe anything without proving it to themselves.

The main reason I agreed with that regulation was because partially hydrogenated oils were in almost everything, when it's entirely unnecessary. Coconut oil, lard, and Smart Balance shortening would replace the need for "hard" oils, which is gained by partially hydrogenation. If someone can tell me why two Oreos needed 2.5 grams of trans fat, which is more than the FDA states is enough (remember, the FDA said melamine was ok in baby formula, at levels higher than what was found).

Judging from all these Corn Refiners Association ads stating how HFCS is "perfectly fine," it seems like the free market is listening to people and thinking of making the switch. This is a threat to the Corn Refiners Association, hense the abundance of false ads. Jones Soda went to inverted cane syrup (apparently that's just as bad but I haven't found anything about that yet), and Coke is even going to use stevia in place of HFCS for some products.
 
^^^But how is the average person going to know they are actually using the trans fat free grease if there is no law? There wouldn't be any consequences if they don't, and the places who use the more expensive grease would be at an economic disadvantage. With the law, everyone is on a level playing field. I am a firm believer that capitalism needs to be strictly regulated, and that "free trade" should benefit this country, not everyone else but us.
 
Regulations to make sure the information is available would make sure people know. I'm ok with those types of regulations, but it can so strict that it interferes with everything.

Though just because the regulation is there, doesn't mean bribery can't take place to make it appear that the markets are following the regulations.

These kinds of arguments can go on all day long, we've all made our points pretty valid, I think.
 
It's not the average person who is going to solve anything. It's the activist and the watchdogs that will. They provide the checks and balances. The reason why democracy and free markets work better than most systems is because it permits these watchdogs and activists to express themselves either through a political or market process.

Focusing on some warped sense of personal philosophy is not how I would defend free markets. I would say the main value of free markets is that it creates the opportunities for checks and balances so that corruption and greed get distributed across many people rather than be concentrated.

The problem with socialism or communism is that opposing voices are quickly stifled so that watchdogs never have a chance to emerge. So you get concentration of power in the government

Having said that, free markets will not work without the rule of law and you need government. But the government also needs to be beholden to the people and have enough branches to have adequate checks and balances. Democracy and free markets aren't perfect.....in fact, philisophically, they have a lot of internal contradictions but they are better than anything else we've got.
 
I work for a major health insurance company. I was told that their research has showed that if your turning age 65 or close to it now, you will need almost $265k saved to pay for medical expenses for the rest of your life. The amount of savings needed will increase in the future since the financial uncertainity of medicare.
 
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We're seeing trans fat labeling now, and I noticed that all baked goods have some trans fats, even if they were made with trans-free oils. Trans fats are *created* by the baking process. The only way to eliminate trans fats in baked, broiled or fried foods is to use 100% saturated fats, like coconut and palm oils, or fully hydrogenated vegetable oils.
 
In Canada all pre-packaged convenience foods sold in restaurants and fast food has to be 100% trans-fat free now. MC-ie-D's changed the oil they were using for their french fries and they haven't been the same since... Happy to know it's not clogging my arteries now!
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
We're seeing trans fat labeling now, and I noticed that all baked goods have some trans fats, even if they were made with trans-free oils. Trans fats are *created* by the baking process. The only way to eliminate trans fats in baked, broiled or fried foods is to use 100% saturated fats, like coconut and palm oils, or fully hydrogenated vegetable oils.

That has been going on since 2006 in the U.S., and the trans-fat free oils are just vegetable oils. When the oil is partially hyrdrogenated, then it becomes trans-fat. If you use non-hyrdorgenated or fully hyrdrogenated oils there is no trans-fat, regardless of baking, frying, broiling, etc. The unsaturated fats are what the trans-fats came from, due to chemical altering. Baked goods do not contain it if the ingredient is not there. The problem was, most baked goods had it, and it was entirely unnecessary.

Originally Posted By: StevieC
In Canada all pre-packaged convenience foods sold in restaurants and fast food has to be 100% trans-fat free now. MC-ie-D's changed the oil they were using for their french fries and they haven't been the same since... Happy to know it's not clogging my arteries now!
wink.gif


I have to be honest here, removing the trans-fat did nothing for the taste. Actually KFC now tastes like chicken instead of grease. What many people didn't know is that their food had been trans-fat free for a long time before the companies announced it, so any complaining of taste after it's announced is indeed purely mental.
 
I haven't noticed any difference in taste with the exception of the french fries at MC-D'ies... And I know when this happened because a friend of mine that also works in the Food Service industry told me after that the oil had been changed.
 
I have eaten McDonalds once or twice since the trans-fat went away, but before then it had been a couple of years. The ones around here still taste like they did when I was a kid. Perhaps Canada managed to keep the beef tallow in it until the trans-fat free oils came in.

Though regional differences are noticeable.
 
Yes, you are correct, beef fats contain a natural, harmless type of trans-fat. In my opinion, it shouldn't be labeled under the trans-fat label, instead it should be "other unsaturated fat" or not considered trans-fat at all.

But the trans-fats that were found to be harmful is when an oil is chemically altered through hydrogenation. I've seen one or two articles stating that fully hydrogenated oils create interstitial fats, which is the same type of chemical altering as trans-fats but it happens to the saturated fats. Other than that, no health risks were linked to it yet...give it time and it'll be considered even worse...
 
Originally Posted By: mormit
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Nationalized health care is a dismal failure every time it is tried. Long waits, unmotivated personnel, shortages, poor equipment...it's all common.


Where that Phillidelphia vs Canada MRI number came from.
http://www.examiner.com/x-1302-Philadelp...l-profitability


Took a lot more searching to find those problems with Canada's system. How much does Canada pay vs US? You have the stomach to look into our system?

We in the US overpay for a system that is worse than all of the industrialized world. It is a national embarrassment. The Scandinavian countries pay 25% less than us and live longer. The UK does not have a perfect system but pays 2/3 that we do and still they live longer despite the deep fried lunches. Nasty, backward Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than we do.

Complacency in our own failed system is pathetic.

And there are reasons for this:
http://healthcare-economist.com/2007/10/02/health-care-system-grudge-match-canada-vs-us/
And their wait times are getting worse:
wait%2B1.jpg


http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/06/they-werent-kidding-about-those-weight.html

Quote:
Got an urgent medical problem? If you visit an emergency room in western Quebec’s Outaouais region, prepare to wait an average of 20 hours and 42 minutes before being discharged or admitted to another ward in the hospital.

According to data compiled by the Le Comité de coordination national des urgences (CCNU), which works with emergency wards across the province, the average wait time in the Outaouais is four hours above the provincial average and two hours longer than last year. In addition, the data does not include the time spent waiting before seeing a doctor.

The data was published Wednesday in the GESCA newspaper chain, as part of its third annual rankings of Quebec hospitals.

The longest wait times in the region were at the Gatineau campus of the Gatineau hospital, where the average wait time was 25 hours.

http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/the-waiting-game-er-wait-times-in-canada-vs-us/
Yep, some real quality care there.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: mormit
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Nationalized health care is a dismal failure every time it is tried. Long waits, unmotivated personnel, shortages, poor equipment...it's all common.


Where that Phillidelphia vs Canada MRI number came from.
http://www.examiner.com/x-1302-Philadelp...l-profitability


Took a lot more searching to find those problems with Canada's system. How much does Canada pay vs US? You have the stomach to look into our system?

We in the US overpay for a system that is worse than all of the industrialized world. It is a national embarrassment. The Scandinavian countries pay 25% less than us and live longer. The UK does not have a perfect system but pays 2/3 that we do and still they live longer despite the deep fried lunches. Nasty, backward Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than we do.

Complacency in our own failed system is pathetic.

And there are reasons for this:
http://healthcare-economist.com/2007/10/02/health-care-system-grudge-match-canada-vs-us/
And their wait times are getting worse:
wait%2B1.jpg


http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/06/they-werent-kidding-about-those-weight.html

Quote:
Got an urgent medical problem? If you visit an emergency room in western Quebec’s Outaouais region, prepare to wait an average of 20 hours and 42 minutes before being discharged or admitted to another ward in the hospital.

According to data compiled by the Le Comité de coordination national des urgences (CCNU), which works with emergency wards across the province, the average wait time in the Outaouais is four hours above the provincial average and two hours longer than last year. In addition, the data does not include the time spent waiting before seeing a doctor.

The data was published Wednesday in the GESCA newspaper chain, as part of its third annual rankings of Quebec hospitals.

The longest wait times in the region were at the Gatineau campus of the Gatineau hospital, where the average wait time was 25 hours.

http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/the-waiting-game-er-wait-times-in-canada-vs-us/
Yep, some real quality care there.


Using Quebec as an example of how things are in Canada is like using Mexico as an example of how things are in the US.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Using Quebec as an example of how things are in Canada is like using Mexico as an example of how things are in the US.


As a fellow Canuck to OVERK1LL I will second that!
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Using Quebec as an example of how things are in Canada is like using Mexico as an example of how things are in the US.

LOL.gif
I'll take your word for it.

It's still state run medical is it not?
 
Everywhere in Canada, health care is run by the Government and it's a good system. Not the as good as private care, but it works and I wouldn't trade it at all. The horror stories I hear going on in the US makes me glad I'm Canadian.
wink.gif
 
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