Low SAPS and engine protection

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Originally Posted By: Garak
That's very interesting to know. I've only seen a couple SN/GF-5 datasheets, at least off the top of my head, that listed SA, and the two that I do recall looking at (may have been a Mobil product, but not sure) had a lower value. So, I guess my "most ILSAC oils" was a gross exaggeration.


I meant ZDDP levels mainly.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
What engines Jet? Mitsi? This particular Ford is at 200k, still very silent, no chain rattle or excessive oil consumption. It does have light piston pin knock when cold though but maybe it's just a piston slap. Still, varnished as [censored].


Hyundai, actually.

Mitsubishi issues are not common at all. though the older hyundai engines are copies of mitsubishi engines and long dead now...
 
I noticed that recently Castrol Germany decided to split it's mid-SAPS CASTROL EDGE 5W-30 into two mid-SAPS products:

1. CASTROL EDGE 5W-30 LL (http://www.castrol.com/de_de/germany/products/cars/engine-oils/castrol-edge/product-range.html)

SAE 5W-30
ACEA C3
MB-Freigabe 229.31 / 229.51
VW 504 00/ 507 00
Porsche C30

2. CASTROL EDGE 5W-30 C3 (http://www.castrol.com/de_de/germany/products/cars/engine-oils/castrol-edge/product-range.html)

SAE 5W-30
API SN/CF
ACEA C3
BMW Longlife-04
VW 502 00/505 00/505 01
MB-Freigabe 229.31/229.51
dexos2®
Renault RN0700/0710

It is interesting to see the LL version lacking API certification at all, however focusing on strong specs like Porsche C30 and MB 229.51.

I wonder why they decided to do it this way and which one will be better for OCI of 30'000 km
smile.gif
 
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had another one in today....

I30/accent MPI engine. Had it's first oil change around 9k, missed the second and now came back for what should've been the third at 28k miles...

All you can see inside the engine is carbonized oil. including the filler cap.

Castrol Magnatec Professional OE 5w40 was put in which has the following approvals:

ACEA C3,
API SN/CF,
BMW Longlife-04,
dexos2,
Meets Fiat 9.55535-S2,
Meets Ford WSS-M2C917-A,
MB-Approval 229.31/ 229.51,
VW 502 00/ 505 00/ 505 01


This should be an excellent GrIII oil, but it couldn't stand up to a 19k oci, which isn't uncommon here. I've never seen results like this from a full-saps oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This should be an excellent GrIII oil, but it couldn't stand up to a 19k oci, which isn't uncommon here. I've never seen results like this from a full-saps oil.

Thanks for sharing that with us. I take it those are kilometers. Of course, here, a 19000 km OCI is fairly uncommon. They should stick us with the low SAPS stuff.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This should be an excellent GrIII oil, but it couldn't stand up to a 19k oci, which isn't uncommon here. I've never seen results like this from a full-saps oil.

Thanks for sharing that with us. I take it those are kilometers. Of course, here, a 19000 km OCI is fairly uncommon. They should stick us with the low SAPS stuff.
wink.gif



I think he's taking miles here. No way a C3 oil (even Magnatec) would sludge an engine on 19k km.
 
Jetronic, thanks for sharing that- my friend (PSA technician) think in a similar way (1.6 hdi turbo feed pipes /general sludge).
On 15k oci ,full SAPS, turbo last forever. On more modern applications with DPFs, and DOUBLE the interval, not so much.
There is no doubt that a modern A3/B4 synthetic can go longer than a mid SAPS formula, let alone low SAPS, but in both cases ( your I30 and Hdi I've mention is either owners problem- double the oci, probably low on oil, or OEMs like overoptimistic OCI-topically French.
On normal OEM interval nothing would happen. Todays C3 oils are similar to a older A3/B4 oils, before they boosted add pack, and min TBN recently.

Whenever possible I use high end full SAPS, and keep OCI under 17-20 k max. On C oils with DPF 15k is maximum . OEMs can keep their 30-40k oci for equipment THEY buy with their money.

A sidenote;
Friend runs a independent shop, it has at least 2 oil changes daily on cars under warranty to cut OCI in half -just change oil so the dealer doesn't see.
 
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
or OEMs like overoptimistic OCI-topically French.


I am not so sure in fact
smile.gif


My Nissan was serviced at French dealership (Renault) and they have done the following:

1. Over the vast majority of specs which are allowed for my engine (ACEA A3, A1, A5, C1, C2 and C3) they choose A3/B4

2. They cut the Nissan's suggested interval in two: from 30'000 km per year to 15'000

3. They increase viscosity from Nissan's recommended 5W-30 to 5W-40

The final product my car received was a variation of ELF EXCELLIUM 5W-40 at OCI 15'000 km max.
 
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Volodymyr, I was referring to a OEMs as a manufacturers, not dealers. Of course one can have oil changes as many as he wish at the dealer, but at what cost?
Triple over independent.
You can be sure that your dealer didn't choose a3/b4 because they know that these spec is more staut, they did that because a3/b4 oil cover most of the engines, and they probably have it in bulk. Also it tends to be the cheapest.

I'll give them credit for good sense with cutting the OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Yes, both of them have Mercedes approvals, but only LL have current VW one.


Both VW specs are current. Although 504 00 / 507 00 has been seen to be higher performance, actually 502 00 / 505 01 will likely have a higher TBN and offer something more 'universal' than the VW specific formulations (that have other specs bolted on where possible)
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Jetronic,

Would be nice if you could make some pictures of the engine next time
smile.gif




I'll try, but I usually don't carry a phone or camera...
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This should be an excellent GrIII oil, but it couldn't stand up to a 19k oci, which isn't uncommon here. I've never seen results like this from a full-saps oil.

Thanks for sharing that with us. I take it those are kilometers. Of course, here, a 19000 km OCI is fairly uncommon. They should stick us with the low SAPS stuff.
wink.gif



I think he's taking miles here. No way a C3 oil (even Magnatec) would sludge an engine on 19k km.


yes, miles as this is used more often on the board. and I'm not talking sludge, I'm talking charred like hard carbon...
 
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Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Yes, both of them have Mercedes approvals, but only LL have current VW one.


Both VW specs are current. Although 504 00 / 507 00 has been seen to be higher performance, actually 502 00 / 505 01 will likely have a higher TBN and offer something more 'universal' than the VW specific formulations (that have other specs bolted on where possible)


Current in a way that is used in a new VAG cars in Europe. I'm not familiar with any new VW engine that uses 502.00/505.01. I could be wrong though.
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This should be an excellent GrIII oil, but it couldn't stand up to a 19k oci, which isn't uncommon here. I've never seen results like this from a full-saps oil.

Thanks for sharing that with us. I take it those are kilometers. Of course, here, a 19000 km OCI is fairly uncommon. They should stick us with the low SAPS stuff.
wink.gif



I think he's taking miles here. No way a C3 oil (even Magnatec) would sludge an engine on 19k km.


yes, miles as this is used more often on the board. and I'm not talking sludge, I'm talking charred like hard carbon...


Oh ok. What is your practice when dealing with carbon deposits, mechanical removal, chemical flush or something else? Does Hyundai allow use of A3 oils in their new petrols?
 
Today I decided to ask Castrol Germany the question why their lube adviser suggests mid SAPS ACEA C3 oil for my Nissan instead of Full SAPS. My question was:

Hello,

I have been following the web-site
http://www.castrol.com/de_de/germany and using the oil search
functionality on the web-site I see that Castrol recommends Castrol
EDGE 0W-30 for my car:
http://applications.castrol.com/oilselector/de_de/c/recommendation?vehicleType=pkw&manufacturer=nissan-(eu)&model=qashqai-j10-(2007-)&modelType=qashqai-2-0-4wd-(2010-)

This oil is mid-SAPs (ACEA C3). Can you please tell me if the
performance of this oil is as good as the performance of the Full SAPs
oil like CASTROL EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4? My car owner manual lists ACEA C3
or ACEA A3/B4 as acceptable, however I would like to find an oil which
has the best anti-wear characteristics for the engine as well as best
longevity of the catalyst.

I have read many articles and used oil analysis where they say that
the low-mid SAPs oils do not perform well in engines where cam lobes
directly touch the valve pushers. Many articles say that for such
engines you require an oil with big amount of ZDDP which is present in
small quantities in mid SAPS oils.

They replied very quickly and in general they told me that:

1. Since Nissan specs also low SAPs oils for my engine it should be fine because I should trust the engineer of the engine

2. ZDDP is an antiwear additive, but "is only one of many solutions for an optimal wear protection"

3. The oil selection in my case should depend upon usage of the car. For short distances and city driving EDGE 0W-30 is better, for long distances and/or sport driving EDGE A3/B4 0W-40 should be preferred
 
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